In this episode, Chris Horkins sits down with his colleague Kayla Smith, a TAS member committed to making a difference for aspiring young Black lawyers in Canada. They discuss Kayla’s involvement in various initiatives and tackling the “pipeline” issue for increasing diversity in the legal profession. They touch on the importance of representation, including the recent historic appointment of Chief Justice Michael H. Tulloch, Ontario’s first Black Chief Justice, and explore effective allyship and how lawyers and firms can support and be allies to their Black colleagues.
Kayla Smith is a litigation associate at Cassels Brock and Blackwell LLP in Toronto with a broad commercial litigation practice. Kayla was called to the bar in 2021 and received her JD from the University of Windsor, Faculty of Law, where she graduated as the Valedictorian of the Class of 2020. During law school, Kayla was an Executive Member of the Black Law Students’ Association of Canada. Kayla is an advocate for increasing access to legal education for Black students in Canada. She is the founder of the Lloyd Dean Moot, an oral advocacy competition geared to support undergraduate students with an interest in the law, and the JD Bridges Foundation, a non-profit aimed at providing financial support and mentorship to Black students in the law school application process.
Chris Horkins is a partner in the Litigation Group at Cassels Brock and Blackwell LLP. His broad commercial litigation practice includes expertise in franchise law, product liability, securities litigation, and class actions. Chris is a member of the 10+ Standing Committee of The Advocates’ Society.
Land Acknowledgement
The Advocates’ Society acknowledges that our offices, located in Toronto, are on the customary and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Anishinabek, the Huron-Wendat and now home to many First Nations, Inuit, and Metis peoples. We acknowledge current treaty holders, the Mississaugas of the Credit and honour their long history of welcoming many nations to this territory.
While The Advocates’ Society is based in Toronto, we are a national organization with Directors and members located across Canada in the treaty and traditional territories of many Indigenous Peoples. We encourage our members to reflect upon their relationships with the Indigenous Peoples in these territories, and the history of the land on which they live and work.
We acknowledge the devastating impacts of colonization, including the history of residential schools, for many Indigenous peoples, families, and communities and commit to fostering diversity, equity, and inclusiveness in an informed legal profession in Canada and within The Advocates’ Society.
In this episode, Chris Horkins sits down with his colleague Kayla Smith, a TAS member committed to making a difference for aspiring young Black lawyers in Canada. They discuss Kayla’s involvement in various initiatives and tackling the “pipeline” issue for increasing diversity in the legal profession. They touch on the importance of representation, including the recent historic appointment of Chief Justice Michael H. Tulloch, Ontario’s first Black Chief Justice, and explore effective allyship and how lawyers and firms can support and be allies to their Black colleagues.
Kayla Smith is a litigation associate at Cassels Brock and Blackwell LLP in Toronto with a broad commercial litigation practice. Kayla was called to the bar in 2021 and received her JD from the University of Windsor, Faculty of Law, where she graduated as the Valedictorian of the Class of 2020. During law school, Kayla was an Executive Member of the Black Law Students’ Association of Canada. Kayla is an advocate for increasing access to legal education for Black students in Canada. She is the founder of the Lloyd Dean Moot, an oral advocacy competition geared to support undergraduate students with an interest in the law, and the JD Bridges Foundation, a non-profit aimed at providing financial support and mentorship to Black students in the law school application process.
Chris Horkins is a partner in the Litigation Group at Cassels Brock and Blackwell LLP. His broad commercial litigation practice includes expertise in franchise law, product liability, securities litigation, and class actions. Chris is a member of the 10+ Standing Committee of The Advocates’ Society.
Land Acknowledgement
The Advocates’ Society acknowledges that our offices, located in Toronto, are on the customary and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Anishinabek, the Huron-Wendat and now home to many First Nations, Inuit, and Metis peoples. We acknowledge current treaty holders, the Mississaugas of the Credit and honour their long history of welcoming many nations to this territory.
While The Advocates’ Society is based in Toronto, we are a national organization with Directors and members located across Canada in the treaty and traditional territories of many Indigenous Peoples. We encourage our members to reflect upon their relationships with the Indigenous Peoples in these territories, and the history of the land on which they live and work.
We acknowledge the devastating impacts of colonization, including the history of residential schools, for many Indigenous peoples, families, and communities and commit to fostering diversity, equity, and inclusiveness in an informed legal profession in Canada and within The Advocates’ Society.
Welcome to Friends Who Argue a Podcast from The Advocate Society.
Speaker 2:Each episode will bring you conversations with advocates across all areas of litigation who share their stories, insights, tips, and tricks from their journeys. As advocates,
Speaker 1:We hope you'll find this podcast informative, inspiring, and most of all entertaining, and that you'll subscribe to our podcast on iTunes to stay up to date on the latest episodes. Friends Who Argue is proudly sponsored by M N P, litigation Support and Dispute Resolution, your expert partner for forensics valuations and litigation support, m n P, wherever business takes you. Welcome to Friends Who Argue. I'm Chris Hawkins. I'm a litigation partner at Castle's, member of the Advocate Society's 10 plus Standing Committee, one of the co-editors of this season of Friends Who Argue and your host for this episode. It's February, 2023, and we're celebrating Black History Month. On this episode, I sat down with my colleague Kayla Smith, to chat about diversity and inclusion, the issues facing young black lawyers in Canada and some of the work that she's been involved in to tackle those issues. Kayla is an associate in the advocacy group at Castles in Toronto with a broad commercial litigation practice. She's a former executive member of the Black Law Students Association of Canada, and a founder of the Lloyd Dean Moot for undergrad students and the JD Bridges Foundation. Two initiatives that we spent some time talking about on this episode. It was a great discussion. Uh, I learned a lot, uh, and I can't wait to share it with you. So without further ado, here it is.
Speaker 3:Kayla, welcome to the show.
Speaker 4:Hi, Chris. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm, I'm very excited to have you here, um, on the show. A as you know, it's, it's February, we're celebrating Black History Month. Um, and I wanted to have you on, because you are a young advocate, um, who, you know, from my perspective, I've, I've got to see the things that you're doing, uh, within our firm and, and outside the firm. And, and you, to me, are really somebody who's out there making a difference for aspiring young black lawyers in a way that, to me, is really interesting and impressive and, and I think, uh, deserving of being highlighted and recognized. And, and so I wanted to talk a bit, um, on the show about some of the initiatives that you've been involved in that you've really had a hand in creating, um, for, for young black lawyers and, and aspiring lawyers. Um, you know, one of those is the, the Lloyd Dean moot. Um, and so could you talk a bit about what the Lloyd Dean moot is and, and what, what it sort of seeks to do?
Speaker 4:Absolutely. So the Lloyd Dean Moot is an undergraduate MO competition that is hosted by the Black Law Association at Windsor Law. Um, I started that mo uh, as the moot chair, uh, three years ago. And the reason why we wanted to have this undergraduate moo competition was for the purposes of introducing oral advocacy skills to undergraduate students who, um, self-identify as black and, um, of color so that they would have the opportunity to, um, explore their interests in law. I found as a lawsuit at the time that I would've really loved to have had the opportunity to, uh, meet law students, lawyers, law professors, and engage with oral arguments and kind of just get to know more about the area of law at that early stage. And so the moot itself, it's, it's an introductory level. Um, so the arguments are easy to understand, and the students themselves get the opportunity to, um, have a friendly competition, explore the law as a field of, um, interest and get to know, again, other upper law students. It's a great networking opportunity as well, because then those students get to meet law students, and some of those individuals are the same ones that help, like inspire them to apply, uh, to law school afterwards. So it's really an initiative that, um, helps those students, particularly of color kind of see themselves as, um, as, as future lawyers.
Speaker 3:That's, that's great. And I, I think, you know, one of the really interesting things to me is that, um, you know, unlike most moots that are out there, it's, it's geared towards undergrads. Um, and I'm just interested sort of how, how did you really, uh, zone in on the idea to have a moot for undergraduate students? Um, you know, as opposed, as opposed to what we normally see, which are, are, you know, the, the moots for law students, which there are, are, you know, so many of
Speaker 4:That's exactly it. I had my own experience of being in law school and, um, having participated in, um, Mott and I, and I recognized that for myself, had I had that opportunity before I applied to law school, it would've given me a great insight into like the, the area of law and whether or not I really wanted to apply to law school. So I figured how could we take Mooting, um, and, and really break it down at an elementary level for students who are, um, in university or college, they don't have a law degree, but they're interested in law, they wanna apply to law school, how can we make the arguments, um, friendly enough that they can understand it at that stage? And so they don't have to do any legal research. It's not, um, a, a moot that requires like a fact either. It's, it's really just to help them hone their oral advocacy skills. And then we pair, you know, those students with upper law students, um, and, and, and kind of building that pipeline right from before they get into law school, they have the opportunity to explore, to learn and to meet other lawyers who are judges, um, and, and judges who are sitting on the bench. I know some of the undergraduate students who made it to the final rounds really appreciated the opportunity of being able to, um, argue in front of judges, like just sitting on the bench. And, um, you know, they had, they've all had great experiences. Now we're, we're in our third year, and, um, I'm really excited about the future of the world.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was just gonna gonna ask sort of how many, how many years you've, you've, uh, been running the mood for. So I guess with three years of experience, like, have you now been able to see some of the alumni from, from that mo go on to, to law school? Like, have you kept up with them at all?
Speaker 4:That's a great question. So let, let me just back up here say that in the first year, um, the MOO was held in person. And so what we did is we really targeted, uh, students at the University of Windsor, um, who were in undergraduate program, the Political Science Criminology, uh, and, and tried to get them to participate because they were local so that they could actually attend, um, in person, uh, Windsor Law. But in, because of the pandemic, one of the joy of the pandemic is that we were able to take this competition virtual. And so that increased, um, our reach, our access. And so now we've got students, uh, that have participating in the last three years across Ontario, um, who then have gone on to apply to law school. And I know one individual particular, who actually is now a student, um, at Windsor Law. So our goals are just really to continue to engage th those undergraduate students continue to inspire them and, um, and in hopes that they do eventually apply to law school. I, I'm confident that we're gonna have much more alumni in the future.
Speaker 3:That's great. And, um, you know, I I, it's interesting sort of the, the experiences through covid and, um, you know, kind of being forced to take things virtual, um, and how, you know, know that that's ended up kind of opening a, a lot of doors in, in some ways. And it sounds like you've had that experience with the moot. Is, is the plan to continue doing it virtually, or are you gonna move back to in person?
Speaker 4:Well, I'll answer this question by first saying it's at the discretion of the current, um, moot chair in each each cycle. Um, I now, as a graduate of WinDor Law, played a more advisory role and some consulted year to year on strategy for, um, the mo the argument, the fact, um, as well, whether it'll be held virtually or not, I think since I've graduated, they've to ho host it virtually because it just allows more participation and even the support for judges as well, like lawyers that are able to, uh, to, to volunteer their time as, as a judge, they can participate virtually. So, so far it looks like it will be virtual, but stay tuned.
Speaker 3:Fantastic. Well, we'll, uh, I know that, um, a lot of lawyers around our firm have been involved as, as judges, and everybody's always been really impressed with the, the quality of advocacy, and I'm, I'm sure some of that is due to the, the work that you and the others involved have put in. Um, so we, we definitely look forward to seeing more, more on that front. Um, I wanna ask now about the other sort of major initiative, which I think is a, a newer, um, a newer, uh, initiative that you've started, uh, called the JD Bridges Foundation. Can, can you tell us a bit more about what that initiative is about?
Speaker 4:Yes. So this falls right along the, um, lines of my personal passions to just continue to increase access to legal education for black students in Canada. Uh, the JD Bridges Foundation, and that's jd, the letters JD for Juris Doctor. Uh, it is a new nonprofit organization that was started last year in 2022, uh, by myself and a group of phenomenal, um, individuals, um, across Canada. Um, and so this team of eight, we came together and thought about our personal experiences in applying to law school and recognized, you know, I, I'll speak for myself, that when I wanted to apply to law school, I was deterred due to financial need. You know, I remember Chris when, um, I was considering applying and I would go to like the open houses at, um, at, at the time I was at the University of Ottawa. And there, there was always a discussion about the bursaries and the scholarships that were available to students once they were admitted to law school. But there wasn't really a discussion about the, the cost of applying to law school. And so I recognize that there was, there's this gap that we aren't really focusing on. Um, and it's the cost to apply because it is expensive. It, particularly when you want to, um, keep your options open and apply widely, I was encouraged to apply widely, but the cost of each application, um, really adds up. And so, uh, because I had family support at the time, I was able to, I remember, I, I spoke to my parents and they split the cost of the, uh, prep courses that I did with me and half. So, you know, I had some support, but I do know that there are students who want to apply to law school, but they don't have that support. They don't have that additional help. And so they d delay delayed by a year, or they, they find an alternative path. And so the JD Bridges Foundation exists to bridge the path to law school, um, through financial support and through mentorship. And so we're particularly targeting, uh, black students who, um, demonstrate financial need. And we offer a bursary that will cover the cost of the lsat. So the exam itself, we paid for, um, the cost of LSAT prep as well. So of course we cover that fee. And then the cost of like the application fees to the universities themselves, as well as transcript fees. Um, and so that's like the financial component of the bursary, the mentorship component of the bursary, Chris, is about helping these law, uh, future aspiring law students with their personal statements and their application questions. So we pair each recipient with, um, a, an upper year law student or lawyer who then review the draft of their personal statement and kinda act as like a coach throughout that time of the application period. Uh, it's Chris, it's been such an exciting journey. We just started, we launched last year, and we were able to raise enough funds, um, to support 20 recipients. So we awarded bursaries to 20 students, 20 black students across Canada last year, uh, from Ontario, from Alberta, from Newfoundland. You know, we want the program to be national. And, um, we're, we're about to launch our second cycle, but it's, it's been a, it's been an exciting journey so far,
Speaker 3:And y and really, I mean, it's, it's really an amazing thing. And, and I've, you know, spent some time, you guys, first of all, have an amazing web designer because I encourage everybody to go to JD bridges.ca where you can see, um, you know, the, the information up there about the, the recipients from this first year of, of bursaries, um, that, that you've done. Um, you know, and, and who these students are. They, they, you know, why they want to go to law school. And, and it's really an inspiring thing, um, that you've done, that you've put together. Um, and, and such an interesting idea because when, when you think about it, it's, it's like you, you touched on where when we, we think about financial aid, um, for law school, you know, everybody is for the most part talking about tuition, talking about the cost of when you're already there, um, and not so much the cost of getting there. And, uh, and, and you know, when I was reflecting on this was sort of an exercise in, in kind of recognizing my own privilege a bit where, um, you know, I, I had that same moment where I, I didn't really, that wasn't something that I was thinking about because I had the support and I had the, the ability to sort of, you know, invest the time and, um, you know, to, to do, uh, everything that's required to apply broadly to law school. Um, and, and, you know, that's, that's something that, you know, isn't available, uh, on an equitable basis to everybody. Um, so I think, I think it's, uh, you know, it's, it's great that you've, you've identified that, that you're, you're tackling that as, uh, as an issue. Um, I'm interested in how, how you sort of thought of the, the mentorship component, um, cuz that, that's sort of an interesting element of this as well. Um, and, and how that sort of figured in when you were coming up with, um, the mission of what the JD Bridges Foundation was, was being created to do.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. You know, the financial aspect is, is quite clear, right? Like, if we can help those students focus their time on studying for the lsat, preparing your, your personal statements, and you don't have to work about worry about I need a part-time job. I, I need to work hours to then be able to cover the cost of the lsat, we can save them that time, right? Then they can really put their efforts into, um, getting the best application, the most compelling application possible. Uh, so the financial aspect is, is quite clear, but the mentorship piece, I think, you know, is really deserving of a further discussion because I, I know at the time I didn't know, um, many black, black lawyers or black law students, and I struggled at the time like, who should I even speak to that I can get assistance from when I'm drafting my personal statement? Um, I, I didn't know really lawyers in my family, I didn't have any, I didn't have, I didn't have friends who knew like lawyers and I could just call, like pick up the phone and call somebody. And so our goal with the mentorship piece is to reduce like that, that that burden, um, on those recipients and put them in direct contact with somebody who has been through the process report. So a recipient will be paired with a lawyer, um, and will do it an introduction. They'll get connected by email, they're encouraged to meet, um, virtually or over the phone for an introductory call. And the, the mentor will ask them questions about, um, their, where they're applying and, and why they're applying to law school. And then we give, we set certain guidelines for the mentorship, but essentially the recipient is encouraged to share, you know, up to three drafts of their personal statements. And then the mentor will provide, um, qualitative feedback. And so that then just helps them really with preparing what is, um, the next most important part, you know, of the application, you know, to the outside it's, it's the personal statement questions
Speaker 3:And, and sort of where, what's, what's like the vision for the future. I mean, I know you're at the stage now where you've, you've had a round of recipients, um, you know, are, are those, uh, recipients now? Like are they, are they applying to law school? Have some of them, uh, uh, you know, started their journey at law school? Are you planning to sort of follow them, um, sort of through their journey? What's, uh, what's the the end goal for all this?
Speaker 4:Yes. Well, I, we don't have enough time to talk about a five year plan for the JD Bridges Foundation, but, uh, you know, right now all of our recipients have, um, applied to a law school in Canada. So we're now in that stage of waiting to find out, um, from them, you know, where have, where have they gotten accepted, um, and then which law schools are they actually going to accept? Um, and we wanna know, you know, what parts of our program worked and what, what didn't work. So, which, uh, prep courses were actually helpful, which study books were were good and useful? What, what, where do we need to grow as an organization for the next cycle? Um, of course, we also wanna, you know, increase our impact. So we raised enough funds from law firms, uh, to support 20 students. Hopefully this year, in 2023, we can increase our sponsorship support so that we can support more than 20 students. That's a part of our goal as well. Um, and then we want to follow those students throughout their law school journey. Um, some of them, even before having gotten admitted to law school, they're already so thankful, thankful for the support systems that we've been able to create, and they wanna find ways to give back to our organization. So, you know, we can get those, um, individuals to, to speak to up and coming, um, applicants. Um, and then they can really be like our alumni going forward. Um, and, and, you know, we wanna even consider broadening our, um, programming to help with tuition costs eventually in the future. So we, we've got some ideas and hopefully, um, you know, Chris, like anyone listening today, can find ways to support by going to our website, considering sponsoring an applicant donating, or even signing up as a mentor. It, it really all makes the difference.
Speaker 3:That's great. Um, so I think, you know, just tying those things together, the two initiatives that we've talked about, I mean, I know we've, we've talked about this a bit, um, just in the lead up to, uh, to doing this show, but, um, you've, you've called this sort of the pipeline issue, and I think that's an interesting way to think about it. Um, this idea that, you know, diversity and inclusion in our profession, um, ultimately depends on there being a path you need to have, uh, uh, a a way to connect, uh, young black students or, you know, other racialized students, um, who may have an interest in going to law school, maybe they don't even know they have, they would have an interest in going to law school. How do you connect them with those opportunities, um, and, and the path, the pipeline that ultimately, um, uh, leads to accessing this, this profession and, and a career in law. Um, you know, and I think, you know, both of, both of the, the initiatives that, that you've been involved in, that we've talked about, kind of seek to, to tackle that in different ways. Um, so I was wondering if you could touch on that issue and, you know, perhaps how you identified that as, um, the issue that you wanted to address through, through the work that you've been involved in.
Speaker 4:Well, I knew that while I was in law school, there was a lot of discussion about, you know, the changes that are necessary in the legal profession. But at the time, I was a law student and I recognized, uh, when I was in my first year of law school, and there were no black males in my, in my class. And I thought, you know, what's missing here? What, what can we do here? And I knew at that moment that really law schools are like the gatekeepers, right? To the legal profession. So while I wasn't a lawyer at the time, I thought, what can I do at the earlier stages before, um, you know, getting called to the bar looking at this, this pipeline is what I think is really crucial because if we can increase, um, our diversity and the representation in our law schools, then those lawsuits are the ones that go off to become lawyers, to become judges, to become, uh, politicians, to become the people that, um, impact law in, in our country. And so I'm targeting it, um, and in, uh, I think what would be a very tangible way, um, at the undergraduate level, but the pipeline, it extends even, you know, earlier, um, to high school students. And, you know, how can we continue to engage as young people at a very early stage that they see themselves represented in, in law school and in the profession, and that this is a, an aspiration worthy of them, uh, for them to actually continue to pursue.
Speaker 3:And, and I think, you know, it, it, you've, you've sort of hit the nail in the head in terms of like, this being really a, a, a, a bedrock issue, um, in terms of, you know, diversity in the profession. And, and, you know, we've heard this from, from politicians in the past around, you know, before you can have, um, a a diverse judiciary, it has to be a diverse bar. And I think the, the, the piece that comes before that is that before you, you have a diverse bar, you have to have a diverse, uh, a diverse body of, uh, law students, and then you have to have diversity in terms of the applicants to law school and, and it all just, you know, hopefully will, will feed up. Um, and, uh, you know, I think, I think we'd be remiss here, you know, during Black History Month, without touching a bit on, um, the, the, the recent historic appointment of, uh, chief Justice Michael Teak. Um, you know, speaking of sort of that, um, that end goal of, of diversity in, in the bench, um, you know, he, he is now the first Black Chief Justice of Ontario. Um, and that's obviously a groundbreaking, uh, appointment, but I'm, I'm interested to hear from you in terms of what that means to you and, and what you think it means for the legal community in, in Ontario and in Canada here in 2023.
Speaker 4:Well, let me first just say that I am so incredibly proud of, um, chief Justice Michael. Uh, it is such a great achievement for him that, as you rightfully said, Chris, it, um, has impacted a broader community, um, you know, the legal community at large, but particularly, uh, black, um, individuals who, you know, aspire to, uh, greatness in the legal profession and have him now as a person that we can look up to and really see ourselves represented at that level. Um, you know, justice Chief Justice Michael Teak is someone that I also have known, uh, personally outside of the legal profession, uh, just growing up family and church communities, and have overlapped. And like, I'm proud to also just know him as a person of integrity and just, you know, worthy of a position in every way as a, as an individual. And I think, you know, it's so important that we have people that represent the diversity among Canadian families. And, and that's a part of why it matters. I think it should matter to everyone in the profession, but it really matters to me. Um, and I, I don't speak on behalf of every black person in Canada, but I, I know from what the discussions that I've had already, Chris, and, you know, at the dinner table, um, on panel discussions, like I, I have just really felt this great sense of pride and joy that, um, people, people of color, but black people in particular feel when we are able to see someone like him, uh, rise to that, to that level on the bench. Um, I think when we are thinking about the diversity of the, of Ken's legal profession and why it should ref represent the diversity of Canadian families, it's really a public interest issue because the legal profession itself, it should mirror the ethnocultural and social diversity of the population that it serves. So that in effect, when we have greater diversity in the legal profession, then we're increasing the, the cultural competency, the sensitivity, the awareness of people and their legal issues. So I think that that matters because it helps to also promote public confidence and like legitimacy in the legal system in Canada.
Speaker 3:I, I'm glad that you touched on that at the end, because that's to, to me, you know, that's, that's where I really see the importance of representation, you know, in terms of the judiciary, in terms of the profession, and ultimately the legal system is a system that the public at large, um, you know, may interact with to, to varying degrees throughout their day-to-day lives. And in, in order for that, the administration of justice for the justice system itself, to kind of have that air of legitimacy, um, I, I think that it needs to, it needs to represent the public that it serves, and people need to sort of be able to look to the system, whether it's judges, lawyers, um, you know, the, the people involved in court administration. They need to be able to see a reflection of themselves, um, in order for that system to work. Um, and so for me, that's when, you know, I, I, I, you know, I definitely, like, I don't have, I, I don't have the same experience to have the, the perspective, um, and, and to say it as beautifully as you have about, uh, what, what, uh, chief Justice TE's appointment means, but to see that and to see, um, you know, justice Obanen, justice Jamal, uh, appointed to the Supreme Court recently, um, you know, the, the meaning that that is attached to those appointments of, you know, great juris who, who, who otherwise are, are, you know, deserving on the merits of, of, uh, being where they are, but the, the meaningfulness that's attached to the fact that they're breaking ground for a community of Canadians who, who can now sort of see themselves reflected there, it's, um, you know, it's, it's great to see, uh,
Speaker 4:Absolutely, Chris, you hit it right there. It's, it's, it's for communities that were historically denied, you know, access to the legal profession, to now have those individuals be there. And Harold's such great respect and honor, it's, yeah, we're, we're extremely proud.
Speaker 3:So it's obviously, you know, representation is one thing. It's a big thing. We talk about diversity, inclusion. Another thing that, that I think, you know, we hear about a lot is allyship, um, and the importance of being an ally. Um, and I, I think there is a desire, I I, I, I think I have a desire, I hope that most of our listeners have a desire, um, to be an effective ally to, um, racialized colleagues and other members of the bar. Um, and I'm wondering, you know, from your perspective, you know, how, how do you think firms, coworkers, other litigators, um, how, how can, can we be effective allies to black lawyers, especially young lawyers, uh, such as yourself or students looking to enter the profession?
Speaker 4:So I think Chris, that like allyship as a term has become a buzzword in like the diversity and inclusion, um, sector at large. Um, so what I, what I would do is like respond to this as like, based off of my own lived experiences and what I think has helped me, right? And how I have appreciated the efforts and the supports of individuals who don't identify as black, but has been helpful to me. So I think one of the things, you know, the first thing has al that has always been important to me is to listen, really, like, actively listening first before acting, I think is so important because oftentimes, I, like I have felt in the past, um, you know, unheard and, and unseen. And so like, when we're making sure that we're giving, um, space to listen, inviting, um, individuals to the table, black individuals, people of color to the table, to hear their stories, their lived experiences, their opinions, and their perspectives, because they're valued, then that from there we can actually take meaningful action. I would say another point is, um, to educate yourself. Education is so important and that we all need and have the responsibility to self-educate on the breadth of the black experience, um, the historical aspect of it, but also the ongoing legacy of anti-black racism in Canada. So education is, is very important from listening and self-educating. Then we can actually, um, challenge our selves. So I would say the next step for individuals, for coworkers, for friends, for lawyers is to challenge your own assumptions, your attitudes and your own beliefs. Do the internal work. You've listened, you've, you've taken the time to educate yourself. Now look inward, and then bring whatever unconscious biases you've identified to light, then you can actually change your attitudes and your belief systems, um, that you've identified. And I would also say just to support and promote and advance, um, in the ways that you can. So when you, when you find out what your, or you've identified your, your privilege, then leverage your power to support others, to support black, your black colleagues, um, and to promote and advance their initiatives. As an example, when I was in law school and I reached out to, uh, castle as the law firm, that I was just a summer student at the time, but I shared the initiatives that I was doing at my law school at the time, the Lloyd Dean Mot and I asked for help. And, you know, Castle's immediately responded with, yes, we can help you. What do you need? Um, castles was able to sponsor the Lloyd Dean Mo in its early stages when we didn't have more than maybe a$200 budget as like, through your Student Law Society, and
Speaker 3:We'll order you a few pizzas with that
Speaker 4:<laugh> exactly. If that now, right? Um, and so, you know, over two,$2,000 was given, and it helped me to be able to, uh, put, you know, action to the words and the ideas that we had as a committee at the time that meant so much to me, me. Um, and, and then when I was starting the JD Bridges Foundation last year, I shared the, um, initiative with the firm. And Castles didn't hesitate to be the first sponsor of the, of the Cycle and the, the largest sponsor at the time as well, you know, as a young lawyer that mattered, I felt that I was at a firm that cared about the causes that were important to me as a black lawyer, and not just about, um, you know, my billable targets or the things that I was doing to bring money to the firm so that they were investing in me as a person. And so I think if we can be very mindful of as a profession, how we are supporting our black associates, our junior, our black or young lawyers, uh, lawyers of color, their ideas and their initiatives to support their communities that were historically disadvantaged, they matter. Those ideas matter. So we should be trying to amplify their voices, their ideas, and just find ways to meaningfully support. Um, castles is also doing a lot of other great work, um, separate from the work that I do, but through an affinity groups, um, our inclusion diversity committee, you know, those are concrete ways that firms can, uh, take meaningful action towards effective allyship.
Speaker 3:That's great. Um, I think we could talk about this all day, but unfortunately, we, we are running out of time in terms of the show. Um, Kayla Smith, thank you for, uh, for being on the show. Thank you for sharing your inspiring work with us. Um, I'm inspired by you. Um, I hope that, uh, the listeners have learned, um, you know, and will take away as much as I will from this conversation, um, in order to support and be better allies to, uh, our black colleagues, um, in the bar. Um, and, and thank you.
Speaker 4:Thank you, Chris, for having me. It was a pleasure.
Speaker 5:Thank you to Kayla Smith and Chris Horgans for the thoughtful discussion on the barriers to diversity and the great work that's being done to try to improve them. Thank you to my co-editor, Chris Orkins, and to the Advocate Society team and our sponsor for their support. This is Karen Barovsky, co-editor of Friends Who Argue Signing Off
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