Friends Who Argue

The Ever-Evolving Career of YASC Civility Award Winner Omar Ha-Redeye

February 10, 2021 Various Season 1 Episode 3
Friends Who Argue
The Ever-Evolving Career of YASC Civility Award Winner Omar Ha-Redeye
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, we talk to TAS award recipient Omar Ha-Redeye about civility in the legal profession, his ever-evolving career in law, teaching at Ryerson during the pandemic, his advice to junior lawyers, and that time he ruptured an eardrum… 

Speaker 1:

Welcome to Friends Who Argue, a podcast from The Advocates' Society.

Speaker 2:

Each episode we'll bring you conversations with advocates across all areas of litigation who share their stories, insights, tips, and tricks from their journeys as advocates.

Speaker 1:

We hope you'll find the podcast informative, inspiring, and most of all entertaining. And that you'll subscribe to our podcast on iTunes to stay up to date on the latest episodes

Speaker 2:

On this episode of Friends Who Argue, we welcome Natalia Rodriguez and Omar Ha- Redeye. Natalia will interview Omar, who was the winner of the TAS 2020 Civility Award voted on Twitter by members of TAS, and presented at the biennial Fall Forum on October 23rd. I will leave it to Natalia and Omar to introduce themselves.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Hello, I'm Natalia Rodriguez and I'm a partner Conway Litigation in Ottawa. And I'm your host for this episode of Friends Who Argue. Today, we have the distinct pleasure of speaking to Omar Ha-Redeye, winner of The Advocates' Society 2020 Civility Award. Omar Ha-Redeye is an advocate and legal educator with a background in civil litigation and health law. He is the executive director of the Durham Community Legal Clinic, where he facilitates access to justice through the legal aid system. He is a faculty member at the newly minted Ryerson Faculty of Law teaching. He is an Advocates' Society Member and winner of The Advocates' Society 2020 Civility Award, which was presented at the Young Advocates Fall Forum on October 23rd. Congratulations Omar on your , uh, Advocates' Society Civility Award. Uh, can you tell us bit about the award , uh , the award and what it means to you?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Thank you so much. Uh , Natalia, it's truly an honor and a privilege to receive this award, especially from The Advocates' Society, which is widely recognized , uh , by the entire profession as being the organization for the advocates of the bar. Uh, so that in and of itself is a , is a true honor, but I think what makes it special for me is that it's a civility award. And I'd say that because civility means a lot to me, it means a lot to me because we've been struggling with it in the profession for so many years. Well, before I even became a lawyer, but also because , uh, many of those issues around civility often occur between the dynamics of senior and junior council , racialized lawyer, non racialized lawyer, man, woman, you know, et cetera , cetera , all those different types of power dynamics. And so it's such an endemic problem that , uh, really , uh , for me to be recognized in that way for civility , um, is not only a privilege, but also very, very humbling because , you know, it's not like I hold myself out to be the exemplar of civility if you will, because we all have our good days and our bad days. Uh , so really it does mean a lot in that context.

Natalia Rodriguez:

For sure. And, and in terms of civility , uh, what do you think advocates are doing well? What have you observed and what do you think , uh, the profession can improve on?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

So we are doing quite a bit , uh, there is improvement, I would say in the sense that the , you know, we're still talking about it, still having , uh, seminars about it. And, and now we've been doing awards related to stability . And I think all of those are positive things because it symbolizes and signals to the profession that this is important and we need to , uh , capture these values and exemplify those values in our, in our professional ideals. So I think all of those types of things can and should be continued. At the same time, it's the flip side is we , we're talking about it for so long and, and you know, many of us would say it's not necessarily getting better. And so why exactly is that? I think there's , uh , many different reasons for that. Uh, most of us acknowledge that the civility issue is , uh, worse unfortunately in Toronto than it is in some other cities. Okay. So we'll own that. We'll recognize that. And I think a big part of that is the fact that it's such a larger bar compared to smaller , uh , courthouses and jurisdictions, that there's less likelihood that you're gonna see that lawyer on another file next week. Right. So if you're dealing with the same lawyers over and over and over again, it's just that much more difficult from my perspective, to be an unreasonably difficult lawyer, like, you know , part of litigation. Yes, we have to be difficult sometimes, but within reason . Um , and so Toronto, I think in particular has that challenge and I'm not entirely sure how we're going to , uh, deal with that. Especially post some of the Supreme Court of Canada decisions that we've seen in this area that, you know, the, the Law Society may not feel emboldened to properly address this issue , uh , in terms of conduct by members of the bar , uh, and, and maybe needs to do more, to provide a , uh , better sense as to what incivility is so greater precision in the definition. I think we can all agree that that's needed. And ultimately I think the, the the bench, the judiciary has to also take a , a larger role in this, even when , uh , and for most of us that are doing civil litigation, the vast majority of incivility is in a hallway, or it's in a nasty email, or it's at discoveries. And, you know, it's on the transcript and maybe the tone is not captured, but some of that wording is.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Yeah. For sure. And, and to what extent do you think , um, incivility is a kind of a natural baked part of the profession? Like we, our system is us versus them, you know, plaintiff versus defendant. And so some may say, well, I mean, that's just the , the nature of your profession sets it up for people to be uncivil with each other. What do you think about that?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Well, there it's an adversarial system. We can disagree though, without being disagreeable. I think that's ultimately what I always go back to. So, you know, if we have two different perspectives on the law, and from my perspective, you know, the law is very, very clear, but the other lawyer also feels the same way that I just, you know, I smile. It's like we have very, very, very different views on the law. Okay. Uh, I'm still gonna go home after that and read all of those cases yet again, and contemplate and reflect and see if I'm missing something, because that's what a , a reasonably diligent practitioner would do, but it doesn't mean we have to, you , uh , bang the table and, you know, thump our chest and say, oh, that's ridiculous. How could you would believe that? And did you even graduate law school? You know, that type of thing, all of that type of rhetoric. And I think that's what it comes down to. It's unnecessary. It is ultimately unnecessary. And I believe that in many cases, the lawyers who are most uncivil are the ones who are often less versed in the law, or perhaps less confident about their case.

Natalia Rodriguez:

And where did you go to law school?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Western.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Western. Okay. And then , uh, and where do you go from there? What, what , what happened after , uh , after law school?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

So I wasn't convinced that I wanted to practice law, still not convinced. So I joke that, you know, I'm not sure if I want to be a lawyer when I grow up. Um, and I never wanna stop saying that. Okay . <laugh> but , uh, <laugh> , you know, I , I , I didn't necessarily jump directly into practice. I , I did apply to a few jobs. Wasn't very , uh , enthusiastic about the offers that I got , uh, you know, a lot of the dynamics too, right. I would've been an older student who already had some life experiences, managed teams, had budgets and things like that , uh, and would be feeling like I'm working my way up a , a ladder that , uh, I probably had some experiences that were beyond the rung that I would've been on. I'll put it that way. Um, and so it , wasn't very enthusiastic about it and started doing some other things , uh, television production, and then , uh , said, what the heck might as well, give this a go. Because a number of my colleagues started sending me files like, Hey, you're called to the bar now right here, take them. And I'm like , uh , and then finally I said, okay , fine . I'll give it a go. But like, how are you gonna do this, Omar? Okay. And so I was like, okay, fine. I'll do it as a sole practitioner, I guess. But that's terrifying. Like, you know, who wants to practice by themselves as much as we're all loners. It's still nice to be able to say, Hey, I don't understand this. And in fact, when you're just called to the bar, do you really understand anything? Okay . So like, you know, I , I need people to talk to. And so , uh , uh , there's two things that I did. The first thing was that I made sure that I had a very strong network of mentors. And so I can say that's probably one of the best aspects of the legal profession is that people will help you. I really, really do believe that , uh, they will help you. It's tough to get the time when they will make that time defined to have those conversations with you, but we have a very generous and giving profession and the people that don't are the exception, not the rule. Okay. And that's very much been my experience, completely, not people who are in my practice, obviously as a sole practitioner, not in my firm , um , completely no pecuniary or , or financial benefit for them in helping me, but they did. Okay. The second thing I did though, is I , I gathered up a bunch of my other friends who , uh, were interested in doing a sole practice and pulled them all together. None of them knew each other. They all went to different law schools. And I said, Hey, can we kind of do something together, but still apart? Uh, and they're like, yeah, let's try it out. And so we, we tried that we helped each other. I learned about other areas of law that I didn't have a background in which, which was enormously helpful later on in my career , uh, got to learn the challenges and the obstacles and the difficulties that other lawyers would face, because, you know, we would , uh, not formally, it was like peer mentoring and, you know, hey, I'm having an issue with this and we would talk about things. Uh , and so you learn from that process of helping others, I think is a value that I take from that. Ultimately, we realized that some of us went on and continued to practice law, went and founded a law firm that are , you know, it's grown in size, others quit the law entirely , uh, went into business or teaching or other things. Right. So, you know, you learn from all of those experiences too. And we said, you know, these experiences should be passed on. And so we had actually for helped a few dozen lawyers. I mean , it was over 50, ultimately , uh, also within their early years so brand new calls, figuring out if sole practice was for them or, you know, doing full practice for a year and then joining a firm, right? Being able to say to a firm that here we go, I have a book of business already as a new call. And here's some of the motions that I've done, some of the decision I've gotten , things like that . Right. Uh , and so I think it's a matter of, we know that there's gaps in our legal industry, there's gaps in the hiring and articling and all that type of stuff. And so is there a way that we can fill in the gaps and in some ways we kind of did, and it was fun to kind of do that. And so that's how I kind of got going in law in those early days.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Right. And that was Fleet Street Law.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Exactly. Yes .

Natalia Rodriguez:

Yeah. And so is that, I mean, that sounds like an amazing initiative for people who, again, are trying to figure out where they fit in into the legal profession , uh , as new calls , um, is that something that's still going with other people, are you still involved in it or what's the status of that?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

So, you know, like most things , uh , in life, life catches up. Right. And so <laugh> , for myself, it was a matter of family planning. So we were, we were expecting a child , um , he's a year and a half now, almost a year and a half now.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Congratulations.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

And so , uh, a lot of what I was doing was , uh, really looking to prepare for that. Uh, I have a lot more flexibility in terms of my professional responsibilities than my spouse does. And so I was settling files, winding things up, but in , in terms of this idea of having an incubator for young lawyers to get their practice up and running , uh , I'm really hoping that someone else picks it up. It might be, you know, one of the law schools in Ontario, quite frankly, doesn't have to be Ontario. There are Canadian law schools that have talked to me about these experiences and have thought about doing something like that. Okay. We, we published those experiences in the, in a , in a , in a law journal. Okay . As to what exactly it looks like and what the potential would be , uh, for meeting that gap in the , in the market for young lawyers and, and providing skill sets . Uh, so I'm hoping someone else takes up that challenge. But , um, I had to sort of scale down my side of things , uh, in terms of practice, as well as what I was doing there in, in light of the fact that we, we had some changes on, on our personal side of things in the family side of things.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Right. And so on that front, how has , uh, how has being a father and now kind of changed your perspective , uh , in law or in your career or life, or , uh , the profession what's changed now that , uh, that you have this completely different perspective?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Um, it's, it's fun. I , you know, I , I , I think it's , it's fun on so many different levels and I hate it, but at the same time, I can appreciate it because I can't wait for him to be old enough for me to talk to him about law. Like, that's what I wanna do. This is what my life has become. It's about law. And I'm like, I wanna teach you about law. Yes. Let's sing nursery rhymes. And yes, this is a train in teaching him like his early words and stuff like that. But I'm still thinking I really want to teach you about like, you know, liability and stuff like that. So.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Sure . I'm sure you could come up with a nursery rhyme that relates to liability.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

<laugh> , I'm sure you could. I'm not sure that we should.

Natalia Rodriguez:

<laugh> Well, I'm telling you those conversations can start early. My six year old and I have discussions about the law, very basic discussions, but she's very curious. So in a few years you'll be having those conversations for sure.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Beautiful. Yeah. I know that's something to look forward to. Um , I think, you know, the , the flip side of that though as well is , um, you know, I took a parental leave . That's why I , I wound things down. Uh , and I think those are important. Those programs are important. Uh , I'm probably, this is, you know, one of the gendered natures of childcare. It's very gendered across the , the profession, but in society at large. Uh , but, but as, you know, as a , as a man who , whose spouse doesn't have that flexibility, as I mentioned , um, it was important for us to do that. And so I actually took the formal PLAP program, the Parental Leave Assistance Program, the Law Society offers , uh , didn't plan on doing it. But ultimately, I was doing about two hours a week. And then one of my colleagues said, Hey, why don't you just like, put everything on hold? And I looked at it, spoke to counsel , almost all the lawyers were agreeable to giving me some time off, which was nice. Okay. Uh , going back to the civility and the profession, right?

Natalia Rodriguez:

Yeah.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

They had to go and tell their clients, sorry. You know, lawyer on the other side just had a baby chill, out a little bit. Okay . Um, and, and so, you know, you see that you actually see that, that, that other lawyers will look out for you in terms of those important things in your life to give you that space. And I , I still do value that , um, in a , in a very significant way. But winding up my practice, having the practice really down to just a small handful of files and taking that parental leave , uh, ultimately then opened up other opportunities and to , in terms of the current role that I'm in now.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Great. So, tell us a little bit about your , uh , work with the, a Durham Community Legal Clinic. How did , uh , how did that come about and what, what , what does your day to day look like?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Well , what does the day to day look like for any lawyer? That's not a fair question. Um , yeah .

Natalia Rodriguez:

I didn't run this one by you before <laugh> , to be fair. I did just spring it on you.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

That's okay . You know, the , the thing is that , uh, I never, would've been able to take this role on if I hadn't taken that parental leave. Right? Just it's the nature of files and the responsibility that you have to clients, right?

Natalia Rodriguez:

Yeah.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

It's just , there's too much going on. Uh, so , uh, it's not like I was applying for jobs I wasn't looking to, to end my leave, you know, but , um, the clinic was, as , as you probably know, the clinics generally in the legal aid system generally is facing a lot of challenges, funding, and otherwise, and they were looking for someone with , uh , my particular skill sets , as well as practice background , uh, someone with some management background, governance, which , uh, uh, I've done a lot out of that in terms of sitting on, you know , volunteer boards in the, not for profit sector and tons and tons of training in terms of that respect., So, you know, they wanted someone to bring , uh, those skill sets to the role that I'm currently in. And , uh, so I look , you know, they approached me and I looked at it formally applied then , um, you know, they offered me the position had to speak to my spouse of course, and said, well, is this the right thing to do? Should we be doing it? And , uh , ultimately she said, go do it. I know you, you'll have fun. This is like, the stuff that you love in life is helping low income populations. People who are unable to afford lawyers, the people who are having the most difficult time of their life, and then you give them a legal problem on top of that. Uh, so, you know, it's, it's not necessarily the same type of role in the sense that I'm not in court every day in the same, well who's ever in court every day , but, you know, I'm not, I'm not necessarily working on file every day . I still work on files, but it's a lot more of the, I guess, the systemic or administrative implementation of, of the services that actually allow that to happen. And , uh, law reform initiatives, you know, working with government on, in terms of legislation , uh, focusing on systemic discrimination, systemic exclusion, all of those types of things that are , uh, very much close and dear to my heart that I was working on over the past 10 years, but in smaller ways, and this role has allowed me to do it in a much more significant way.

Natalia Rodriguez:

That's , uh , that's great. That's really important. So it sounds like a lot of, kind of more community organizing and , uh , public policy type of , uh , type of work as well.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Certainly. Yeah. A lot of that type of work as well, public legal education , uh, and really grounding the law, not just in , uh, in the perspective , of you know , the parties, it's very easy to develop those blinders of who your party is, who your client is, and that's it, but thinking about what the broader impacts are within a community at large.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Right. Right. The systemic issues that affect them .

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Exactly. Exactly.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Um, and , and so I understand now that , uh , you are teaching at the newly minted Ryerson , uh , school of Faculty of Law. Um , so what has that been like, what are you teaching and how has, I guess COVID , and the situation now affected , um , your, your teaching style and, and what's , uh , what's kind of happening with your students.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Yeah. So no one obviously planned for the pandemic. I mean, I think that's part of it, right. And , uh , I think Ryerson though, being a new law school, it was easier for them to , uh, adapt or change the way that they were doing things rather than saying, Hey, this is the way we've been doing things all along. And now all of a sudden we have to find a new way to do it in the pandemic. Um, so that, that's an advantage that I think that new of Faculty of Law had. I've been teaching at Ryerson for the past 10 years. So , uh, since right before I got called to the bar, actually , uh , and for many reasons, I mean, you know, first of all, someone offers you a teaching job and like, are you really gonna say, no? It's kind of cool to do right, that early in your career. Uh, and, and, and I think that for advocates, because that's really our audience that I wanna keep on going back to , yes, it's true. The majority of our advocacy often is in writing. I still believe that, okay , that's, that's the nature of our practice. But we also don't get the same type of oral advocacy experiences that the lawyers that are much more senior to us have. That's the reality. Jury trial were much easier to have, civil jury trials were much easier to have 40 years ago than they are today.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Well, everything settled today, right?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Everything settles.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Everything settles. How often do you get a chance to, well , it's not often, right? Like the full blown trials are hard to come by. They happen, but uh , not nearly as much as they did say 25, 30 years ago.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Exactly. And when they do happen, you know , there's always a question I'm sure in the judge's mind, like, why couldn't you settle this right? I mean, this is , you're only this far apart. Why can you not sort this out? And , and , and they're not wrong in that respect. Um, and, but the reason why I , I bring that up is that, you know, jury trials are interesting. I still file jury notices. Okay . <laugh> The only time I get to really do jury trials is if I team up with a criminal law practitioner, okay, to do that type of work, because, you know, in , in civil, it's much more difficult to get that, but having those experiences gives you an edge in the civil world. And I think that being able to teach even to a lay audience, so now to undergrads, not even in the law school context, is your ability to be able to explain a law to a layperson in a way that they understand.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Right.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

It is a form of oral advocacy that we just don't get enough of as young advocates. And so I love that experience , uh , of teaching and now teaching in the law school is, is a totally different experience. It's, it's amazing in another level because , uh, you know, co-teaching torts . So Ryerson has this innovative model where they have more of a traditional academic. And so my co-teacher , uh , also teaches at Osgoode in U of T and is doing very similar approach to , uh, you know, what she would do there. Uh, and I come in with my practical components and say, great, we're talking about, you know, this week, the material contribution test. Great, very interesting, philosophical, esoterical. We can talk about that, but in reality, you're not gonna be contemplating it as an alternative to the "but for" test in your plea, cause it's not gonna happen. OK . So like , cause they're all thinking, oh , can we use this all the time? I'm like, no . OK . So <laugh>.

Natalia Rodriguez:

You will probably never use this in your career.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

<laugh> Never, I actually, I made a bet with them cause I'm willing to take bets you will never use it in your career. So you know, it , it's nice to be able to do it in that way to say, you know , uh , tort law, which I love. I mean, it's, it's amazing to actually do tort law now a second time. Okay. Because I'm, I , I get to watch these lectures , uh , and be involved that way actually knowing about tort law , becasue the first time around, I had no idea what was going on. So, you know, it's, it's nice to do that. And then also saying here's how it actually plays out. And these graduates of , uh , of the new law school won't have to article, so it's an integrated practice curriculum, much like Lakehead . And so they will be able to go directly from graduation to practicing the law, whether it's sole practice or in a firm or otherwise. But that means that we have to build in those practical considerations into our course. And that's part of my responsibility to do.

Natalia Rodriguez:

That's great. Cause in law school, my experience anyway, was that 90% of what I learned had nothing to do with the actual practice of law. And it was all theoretical and philosophical, like the material contribution test <laugh> . Um, so that's great. I think that's actually long overdue in our profession , uh , uh , a law program that integrates , uh , practice. Um, so let me ask you about your interaction with your students. Because I know for, for me law school , uh , a big part of why I enjoyed it was the interactions with my professors and, you know, go to their after hours , uh , office hours and you know, asking questions. And so how do you interact with your students in, in the age of COVID?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

It , it's definitely challenging, Natalia. And I think that's one of the downsides that we're all facing in COVID is because we have this , uh, social isolation , uh, and this artificial Zoom medium that we all have to use. Right. So it's not easy. But what I'll say is that I try to bring the same type of energy to my conversations via Zoom. I mean, I can't do my , uh, walking around and flailing my arms in the auditorium in the same way that I would in person, but you know, still try to bring that same energy. And I think the students have responded accordingly to that. And I'll , I'll say that because , um , I'll illustrate it in this way that my class runs from nine to 10. So given that I have a very, very busy day and, and you know, sometimes even have motions, let's say a 10 or whatever it might be. Okay. Uh , my office hours, aren't gonna be after class. They're before class. So we do from eight to nine and despite it being eight to nine and them groaning and complaining and saying, oh , Omar, I'm barely awake. Okay . They still come to office hours and we do it via Zoom. And it's like sometimes, you know, lots of people there, we have to do breakout rooms in my Zoom if they have questions. And, and like there is yet to be office hours where there has never been a single person that has arrived . So, you know, they're having fun and we're not even necessarily part of it is talking about the law. Of course, part of it is them talking to me about random stuff in their lives , uh, because we're having fun. And quite frankly, that's my, my very lame equivalent of a social life these days. So, you know, we're , we're , we're still making it work and uh, you know, I'm really, really enjoying the enthusiasm and the interest and the ambition that these young advocates, these younger advocates and even ourselves , uh, are, are already exhibiting.

Natalia Rodriguez:

That's great. I'm really looking forward to see how this new crop of , uh , law students, how they develop and when they get, get out into the , uh , seeing them flourish. So that's really exciting to be a part of that. Um, let me ask you about , um, on a more personal level, what are you doing when you're not practicing law? I guess now you're chasing after a toddler, but otherwise , um, you know, what are your kind of general interests , uh , outside of law, if you have any, I mean maybe it's law is all encompassing, which it can be.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Yeah. I , I think the lifestyle of practicing law is all encompassing. It doesn't mean I don't have other interests. I have many, many interests. Uh , too many actually is , is what my, what my spouse would say. Um, but you know, no I have all kinds of academic or intellectual interests, but, you know, in terms of activities , uh, in my younger days, more my teenage years and then thereafter , uh , I used to do Mui Thai, so kickboxing. U h, my, my spouse h as forcibly retired me from that, u h, hobby, if you will, after, you know, in my more recent years, a I fractured a rib during training and then on our honeymoon in, u h, Thailand, because that's where we d ecided to go, I ruptured a n ear d rum from getting a swing k ick to the side a nd t he h ead. And so our scuba diving plans were done as a result. And she said, you are done. You a re no longer doing any Mui T hai. And I didn't have any argument to stand on. So, you know, u h, sometimes even the non-lawyer in the relationship can win t he argument.

Natalia Rodriguez:

<laugh> Not often.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Not often, no.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Don't tell my husband that, he's gonna get some ideas <laugh> . Um, and so before we get, so we're gonna do a lightning round coming up shortly with a , this or that questions. But before we do that , um, you know, it sounds like you you've , you have a lot of life experience, you have a lot of , uh , different things that you've done in , in your, in your life. Um, and it seems to me like you are a very good person to be able to dispense some advice to people just entering the profession. So what advice do you have for young advocates , uh , entering the profession today?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

And I'm not trying to be contrary here, but the best advice I would give is that don't accept anybody else's advice, but hear their opinions out, and develop your own advice. Uh , and that's quite frankly what I did. So I did not know a single lawyer before I decided to apply to law school. Right. This was a profession in a field that was completely , uh, alien to me. Uh, and I got to know a lot of them even before I graduated law school and, and many different ways that I did that part of it, working through politic , uh , part of it in law school, I would randomly email or call up lawyers and say, Hey, can I get 15 minutes of your time? Okay. And travel from London, Ontario to Toronto, just to hang out at a Starbucks with a lawyer. Okay . Uh , and I did that like literally I would say hundreds of times over the years. Okay. Uh, and so I go back to it. Lawyers will make time for us. We will, we'll make you time , time for each other. So hear other people's perspectives out hear their opinions out and formulate your own opinion because the only person or the best person to advocate for yourself is only going to be yourself. And that's the advice that you need to listen to .

Natalia Rodriguez:

Absolutely. Very true. Uh, okay . So we're, we're, we're coming to the end of our , uh , time together. But before we do, I wanna do the lightning round, which you have not seen these in advance. No . Um , so I'm gonna give you a choice between two different things. You're gonna choose whichever one most resonates or most , seems , appealing to you and , uh, with no discussion and no caveats. Just, just say the word and then we'll move on to the next one. We're gonna be lightning quick. And if you wanna come back to any one of them at , at , at the end and you wanna say, well, let's talk more about that one or whatever. That's fine. We can do that. Okay. But otherwise it's going to be just like quick, spontaneous and moving on to the next. Ready. All right . We'll start with a very easy one dog or cat?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Dog.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Climb, a mountain.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Trial or appeal?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Appeal.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Go out for breakfast or go out for dinner?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Breakfast.

Natalia Rodriguez:

rock or rap?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Rap.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Half empty or half full?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Half full.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Digital or analog?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Digital.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Spring or fall?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Fall.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Coffee or tea?

Coffee 4:

Coffee.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Travel back in time or see the future?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Back in time.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Predictability or spontaneity?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Spontaneity.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Jimmy Kimmel or Jimmy Fallon.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Oh Boy. Jimmy Fallon.

Natalia Rodriguez:

<laugh> Late night or early morning?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Early morning.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Feeling too cold or feeling too hot?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Feeling too hot.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Ernie or Burt?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Ernie.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Eliminate war or eliminate poverty?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Oh, I can't do that . I have to pass. Sorry,

Natalia Rodriguez:

Extrovert or introvert?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

I am very much an introvert.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Live theater or movie theater?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Movie theater.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Singing or dancing?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Both.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Fries or salad?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Salad.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Federal court or superior court?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Superior court.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Tupac or biggie?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Tupac.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Comedy or drama?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Comedy.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Facebook or Twitter?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Twitter.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Sweet or salty?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Salty.

Natalia Rodriguez:

A night out or Netflix and chill?

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Netflix and chill.

Natalia Rodriguez:

Very nice. Thank you. I've completed the lightning round.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

That was stressful. I'm not gonna lie. That was very, very stressful.

Natalia Rodriguez:

<laugh>

Omar Ha-Redeye:

Did I get it right?

Natalia Rodriguez:

Uh , there are no right answers. Although you did say Tupac and I was gonna go with Biggie, but that's just a problem . <laugh>

Omar Ha-Redeye:

That was also a tough one.

Natalia Rodriguez:

That's a tough one. That's a tough one. They're both great for sure. Um, okay, well , uh, thank you so much, Omar, for being with us today on Friends Who Argue or who argue civilly, perhaps we need to change the title of our podcast, but , uh , it was an honor and a pleasure to have you on our, on our podcast today. And , uh , and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us.

Omar Ha-Redeye:

This was so much fun. Thank you for having me. And it really was a truly an honor. Uh, thank you to the Young Advocates Standing Committee as well.

Speaker 2:

Thank you again to Omar and Natalia for this great podcast. I'd also like to thank my co-eds Chris Horkins and Web Haile for making this podcast possible. Thank you as well to our production leads Ian Breneman, Natalia Rodriguez, Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Matthew Huys, and Laura Gurr.. Thank you to Danielle Baglivo of Dentons for her sound editing help, and thank you to Robin black and Dave Mollica of The Advocates' Society. We look forward to seeing you next time.

Speaker 1:

That's it for our show. We hope you enjoyed listening to this episode and that you'll tune in next time.

Speaker 2:

If you enjoyed this episode and want to stay up to date , please subscribe to our podcast on iTunes.

Speaker 1:

Friends Who Argue is brought to you by The Advocates' Society, an association of advocates with over 6,000 members from all areas of practice across Canada. For more information about The Advocates' Society, go to www.advocates.ca or follow us on Twitter at, @Advocates_Soc .

Speaker 2:

Until next time, we are Friends Who Argue. Until next time we are friends who argue.