Parenting in Law

As we begin another school year, Laura Gurr speaks to litigators Tamara Ramsey, Mark Flisfeder and Matt Huys about the challenges of maintaining a litigation practice as a parent - particularly during the COVID-19 pandemic - as well as tips and tricks for being productive while staying sane. We hope you find this candid conversation useful whether you are a litigator who is parenting or not.  

Laura Gurr is a partner with Cohen Highley LLP and is a member of its management team. Laura is part of the multi-residential housing group and her practice focuses on condominium law, acting for condominium corporations, property managers, and developers in a broad range of litigation, operational and governance matters. Laura’s practices also includes expropriations law, planning and zoning, property tax, and regulatory compliance issues. Laura is mom and step-mom to four children, ages 7 to 14.  https://cohenhighley.com/our-team/gurr-laura/  

Tamara Ramsey is a partner in Dale & Lessmann’s Litigation/Dispute Resolution Group. Tamara is a litigator with a diverse litigation practice, who focuses on corporate and commercial disputes, including trade-mark protection, contractual issues, shareholder disputes, estate disputes, complex torts, and termination of employment and consulting relationships. Tamara is mom to an 11-year-old son and stepmom to a 22-year-old stepdaughter.  https://www.dalelessmann.com/bio/tamara-ramsey

Mark Flisfeder is counsel in our Litigation Group in Toronto. His practice is dedicated to health law and the representation of physicians. Marc has represented clients before all levels of court in Ontario, including the Court of Appeal, as well as before administrative bodies and tribunals. Mark's daughter is eight years old.  https://www.mccarthy.ca/en/people/marc-flisfeder

Matt Huys is a partner with Osler LLP in Calgary, and a member of Osler's National Litigation Department and its energy (oil and gas), environmental, construction, and securities litigation teams. Matthew practices complex, high-stakes corporate litigation, with an emphasis on energy, construction, and securities disputes. Matt became a parent during the pandemic, and his son is now one.  https://www.osler.com/en/team/matthew-huys

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome to Friends Who Argue, a podcast from The Advocates' Society.

Speaker 2: 0:08

Each episode, we'll bring you conversations with advocates across all areas of litigation who share their stories, insights, tips, and tricks from their journeys as advocates.

Speaker 1: 0:19

We hope you'll find the podcast informative, inspiring, and most of all entertaining. And that you'll subscribe to our podcast on iTunes to stay up to date on the latest episodes.

Speaker 3: 0:30

As we look beyond Labor Day, many lawyers across Canada are wearing multiple hats as advocates, and also as parents preparing for another school year during the COVID-19 pandemic. Laura Gurr speaks candidly with three TAS members, all accomplished litigators and parents at varying stages of their parenting journey about managing schooling at home, dealing with competing family and client demands, and tips and tricks for staying productive and sane.

Laura Gurr: 0:59

Thank you all for joining us today on Friends Who Argue. My name is Laura Gurr and I'm a partner with Cohen Highley in London, Ontario. I'm also a mom and a stepmom to four children ages seven to 14. I'm here today with Tamara Ramsey of Dale& Lessmann LLP, Mark Flisfeder of McCarthy Tétrault, and Matt Huys of Osler to talk about parenting in litigation. Tamara is a partner at Dale Lessmann Litigation Dispute Resolution Group, and has a diverse litigation practice that focuses on corporate and commercial disputes. Tamara is also a member of The Advocates' Society, 10+ Standing Committee, and the editor of Advocacy Matters. Mark is counsel in McCarthy's Litigation Group in Toronto. His practice is dedicated to health law and the representation of physicians. Mark is also an active member in The Advocates' Society. And Matt is a partner at Osler and a member of its National Litigation Department and its energy, environmental, construction, and securities litigation teams. His, he focuses on large commercial disputes in the energy sector and is based in Calgary. Uh, Matt is also called to the bar in both Alberta and British Columbia. Welcome Tamara, Mark, and Matt. Before we get into some tactical advice, can you share with me a bit about your practice and your family?

Tamara Ramsey: 2:29

I have a blended family. My stepdaughter is 22 and moved to the other side of Toronto mid-pandemic. My son recently turned 11 years old. I practice commercial, trademark, and estate's litigation at Dale& Lessmann LLP. My spouse works part-time in advertising and part-time as an artist. He has always worked from home, but it's been very different experience for him to have everybody else at home with him.

Mark Flisfeder: 3:01

Uh, for me, uh, I I'm married as well. Uh, we have an eight year old daughter, uh, she's in grade two. She just turned eight a few weeks ago. Uh, my wife is a lawyer as well. She's been working from home, uh, like I have throughout pandemic, uh, and we've had homeschool for a, a whole chunk of that time. Um, practice-wise, my practice consists, uh, of assisting physicians mostly with regulatory matters, uh, and professional discipline matters. Um, and, and over the past year I've done a number of, uh, uh, remote hearings, nothing in person, all remote.

Matthew Huys: 3:34

Um, and Matt here and, and I I'm married. I've been married for about a decade, but I relatively new, uh, dad. Uh, we had a son back in September. Um, so he's only nine months old. And so my wife, uh, is on maternity leave. Um, but like me she's career oriented and she stayed, uh, working part-time. Uh, I've got a, a busy litigation practice out here in Calgary. Um, and, uh, like I mentioned, my wife has been, uh, working and staying in touch with her work. So we've been navigating that as parents and, uh, and moving, uh, through it, uh, during COVID.

Laura Gurr: 4:09

Okay. And, uh, just for those listening, it's June in, in 2021 now. And so, um, are you working from home still or just have you made the transition back to the office? So maybe Tamara, if you wanna start.

Tamara Ramsey: 4:25

Sure. I am mostly working from home, but throughout the pandemic, I've been going into the office as needed for longer hearings or examinations, or just for a change of scene. In summer 2020, we have, um, some challenges at home. Uh, we have an old house that had no AC, which made it really difficult to have all of us at home during the summer. So the only place I could get privacy and a reasonable temperature to conduct hearings was at the office. We have remedied the AC problem as of a few weeks ago. So we're in better shape for this summer, but it has meant that we've been working at home while undergoing a major renovation to part of our house. And it's caused some challenges with privacy and we all have a newfound love for headphones.

Laura Gurr: 5:23

Oh, headphones are great. Um,<laugh> what about you, Mark? What have you even up to?

Mark Flisfeder: 5:28

Uh, I I've been working from home, uh, exclusively from the outset. Uh, I went into the office once to pick up some stuff and get out, but, but other than that, I've been working from home, uh, all the time. Uh, not, not quite the situation as Tamara, but, uh, we did move mid-pandemic to a new house. Uh, our, our previous home was much more open concept, uh, which was a real challenge with everyone working, uh, uh, remotely and going to school remotely. So, so in our new home, we have each of us have a, a dedicated space, which makes that work, uh, working all at the same time from home a lot easier. Um, yeah, that's about it for me. Uh, hopefully we'll get into the office on a more permanent basis in the Fall, but I think, uh, we'll just wait and see on that.

Laura Gurr: 6:18

And Matt, you're out in Calgary. You guys have had a bit of a different experience than the rest of us are from Ontario.

Matthew Huys: 6:24

Yeah. Yeah. I, I suppose we've had a bit more flexibility to go in when we want, uh, I I've been going in here and there. I've been trying to be at home, uh, as much as I can, mostly spend time with my son and, uh, and enjoy being around my wife, um, uh. With that have had, uh, a pretty busy trial schedule, about 16 weeks of trial, um, uh, uh, this year, um, alone. So, you know, trying to navigate that when most of the trial in the prep is, uh, in person has been difficult. So I've been spending a little bit of time in the office. Absolutely. Uh, and my son's, uh, a vocal guy, uh, and it, his, uh, room is right next to my office. So, uh, when I'm on important hearings, uh, having the little baby, uh, in the background, uh, um, doesn't always work. Um, and so on those days I've been heading into the office.

Laura Gurr: 7:12

That makes sense. And, you know, Matt, I don't think you're quite there yet, but, um, Mark and Tamara, what would, was helpful when schools were closed?

Tamara Ramsey: 7:24

Um, which has been most of the most of the last year and a half, schools have been closed. Um, but our routine, um, and approach has certainly changed over time. During the initial stage of the closure, especially, um, when there was little structure to the day, I realized that I really needed to create some sort of structure by creating a schedule. I, I did a schedule for the whole family rather than having it focused on my son. At that point in time, the best part of the schedule was the 15 minute recess in the morning. Um, the 2020-21 school year has been different. There's been much more structure to the school day, so we haven't imposed our own separate schedule. Um, my son is extremely independent, which is something we want to encourage. The reports from his school is that he's doing very well with online learning. Um, so we've kept our involvement to be relatively short with a daily check-in and trying to ensure the assignments are being submitted. Uh, we do also try to get outside daily to use up some energy, but some days that's a challenge. Back in December when we knew that schools were closing again, we teamed up with Santa Claus to get our son, his own desktop computer, and having a dedicated workspace for him has been really helpful. Uh, my stepdaughter has also been doing online school all year, although she's independent and doing it from her own apartment. Um, she also had some equipment challenges and she managed to round out her home, set-up with equipment from both our household and her mother's household. So we teamed up, um, to supplement her laptop with a keyboard and a mouse, and she got a scanner so that they scan her assignments and not get carpal tunnel from being on a laptop all the time.

Laura Gurr: 9:24

Mark?

Mark Flisfeder: 9:25

I've had well, some similarities and some differences. Uh, my, my daughter is, uh, younger than, than Tamara's, uh, uh, 11 year old and certainly younger than 22 year old. Um, at 11, uh, excuse me, at eight. She she's really not at an age where she can, you can just pop down in front of a computer and see her at the end of the day. Uh, she's need a lot of technical support. So, uh, having a printer at home, uh, with, uh, a daughter in grade two has been, uh, I think a necessity even though online school has been online of the year. Um, her teacher has been absolutely terrific, uh, this school year and sends out the slides of what she's going to teach at the beginning of the day. So we can print it out and she can have it ready and she can practice her handwriting and all of those I things. So important skills that you learn in those early grades.

Laura Gurr: 10:14

For all three of you, when, when we, you started this sort of pandemic, um, or maybe reflecting on the past 15 months, what would you say your biggest mistake was? Or what expectations did you have that were unrealistic? Uh, mark, did you wanna take a start with that one?

Mark Flisfeder: 10:32

Tamara had talked about, uh, the schedule in her home and how helpful that was. Uh, I have to say we had the opposite experience, uh, when, when school shut down, you know, pretty much overnight in March, 2020, uh, we, we created a schedule in our home and, and we had this notion that we could be teachers and, and lawyers at the same time. Like I said, my wife is a lawyer as well. Uh, and so my wife actually actually prepared daily schedules, uh, of what homeschool would look like right down to lesson plans. Uh, we even had, uh, O Canada, we were singing O Canada every morning. Uh, and, and eventually we realized that that was just totally unrealistic, not at all sustainable. Um, and, and we just burnt out pretty quickly. It was just not realistic to do two jobs at once. We're lawyers, were not lawyers and teachers at once.

Laura Gurr: 11:22

I had, I had the same experience.<laugh>,

Mark Flisfeder: 11:25

<laugh> Good to know. I'm not alone.<laugh>

Laura Gurr: 11:29

Um, what about you, Matt?

Matthew Huys: 11:30

So, you know, I can't comment on what it's like being a parent outside of, um, uh, COVID in the lockdown because, uh, that's been my only experience. But more generally as a parent, I would say my biggest mistake was thinking I'd be able to, uh, run my practice and live my life uh, the way that I did before. Parents always say that, um, having kids as a game changer and I should have, uh, taken that more to heart. Um, realizing that, um, you know, you can't work the same way and you can't expect to complete tasks the same way. and you do need to be, I think, more efficient and rely on your team members in a different way. So that was, that was my biggest mistake going into this.

Laura Gurr: 12:09

And then Tamara, what about your experience?

Tamara Ramsey: 12:12

Uh,<affirmative> well, I will say on the schedule, mine was not that complex<laugh>, which is perhaps what made it sustainable. Uh, well, on the, on another front, um, there have been many times during the pandemic when my patience was tested. Uh, despite what I said earlier about my son being independent with his remote learning. Um, he's also perhaps somewhat like his mother, a deadline-driven procrastinator, and therefore requires a certain amount of nagging. I can sometimes get annoyed by my own nagging and have in my view quite properly, but, somewhat regrettably lost my cool a few times.

Laura Gurr: 12:58

I think that that's completely understandable. And I'm sure most parents, especially of school aged pre-teen children, um, we have one of those at home. That experience is not unique. I don't think.

Tamara Ramsey: 13:12

I, I hope not.

Laura Gurr: 13:16

<laugh> U m, so when you're trying to navigate this, you k now, obviously this was i n a situation anyone anticipated pre 2020, u m, how did you approach your firm with what you needed and, a nd how you were g onna make those changes? So, Matt, I, I know you said you realized you have to practice a little bit differently.

: 13:36

How did you approach your firm about that?

Matthew Huys: 13:40

Uh, you know, I think being a, being a dad generally, um, uh, it, it takes some, uh, communication, some understanding, uh, both from your team members and I think your fellow partners. So for me, it was just about communicating with, um, well, I was a senior associate when I first had my son. So, uh, communicating with the partners I worked for and, you know, saying, you know, I'm gonna get to things, uh, tomorrow or later on and, and having some communication about, uh, what I could reasonably do. And, um, I, I was struck by how reasonable everyone was. Uh, most of the people I work for do have kids and they completely got it. So, you know, for me, it was more about having communication with people. I didn't formally, uh, request any, um, uh, any accommodation, but, um, having discussions, telling people, uh, what I need and what I could reasonably do is, is how, um, uh, you know, I approach things. I would say having an infant, um, in some ways the pandemic I can imagine is, um, is a, is a benefit because I can be home. I can be around my wife, I can help out. And I imagine if it wasn't the pandemic and I had to be in the office, things would be a lot harder. Um, of course I think that's completely different in switches when your kids get a little bit older in they're school age, but for me, uh, having an infant, um, it's been great being at home and being around.

Laura Gurr: 14:55

Yeah, that's true. Like it's, um, it's a unique time to be working from home and parenting. Um, Tamara, what about your experience?

Tamara Ramsey: 15:06

There was no need for me to approach the firm about what I needed. Everyone at the firm understood that working from home created challenges for everyone. Um, I was also honest with colleagues indicating on occasion that I was distracted by a Lego emergency. Uh, many of my colleagues were also honest about their childcare needs as well. And the open dialogue helped to normalize a lot of these challenges and we've generally respected what everyone was, and is still dealing with, with these challenges.

Laura Gurr: 15:44

Yeah, I, I think communication. Um, and, and I, I think we mentioned that normalizing that communication about those challenges, that's I think one thing that I was really happy to see, um, it happening in, in our firm too. What about Mark?

Mark Flisfeder: 16:01

Yeah, my experience has been very similar to Tamara's. I, I didn't have to, uh, approach anyone in my firm about what I was dealing with or the experience. Um, but I do think, you know, occasionally from time to time, uh, it's been helpful to remind colleagues who don't have younger children, uh, about the challenges and what we're dealing with. Um, yeah, this is actually something that I hope sort of carries on after the pandemic sort of this honesty about what we're dealing with at home and our responsibilities at home. Uh, and I hope the people, the way that they have been frankly understanding in the past fifteen months or so continue to be understanding, uh, down the road, once we are back in the office, if you need to leave early, if we can't schedule meetings at a certain time, uh, and so on.

Laura Gurr: 16:45

Yeah. That's a really good point. And then I I'm hearing, you all had, you know, really positive experiences with your firms or you, you have so far, how did you manage the client expectations? So, Mark, did you wanna speak to that?

Mark Flisfeder: 17:02

Yeah. And, and I think at first, um, you know, my approach was basically to, to do nothing and to sort of pretend that, that I was able to do everything and continue, you know, being, uh, present all the time. Uh, no matter what. And, and, and more recently, maybe the last few months, um, I've started being a lot more open with my clients, just telling them straight up, you know, what I'm dealing with and what my challenges are. Uh, all of my clients, as, as you said earlier, all of my clients are doctors. Many of them are, are about my age, uh, uh, I'm in my late thirties. Um, and as soon as I open up about what I'm to dealing with, you know, time limitations, et cetera, usually you hear a little bit of a sigh of relief. Um, and, and they start to open up about what they're dealing with. Uh, often I'm speaking with clients and, and, you know, I can hear their kids in the background and so on. So I actually find that once you open up with people and, uh, that's really with my clients and I tell them what I'm going through and what I'm dealing with, um, people have been pretty open, uh, and it's actually been a good way to engage, to form a stronger connection with those clients.

Laura Gurr: 18:08

And Matt, what about you?

Matthew Huys: 18:10

Very uh, similar experience to Mark. Um, uh, you know, at first, I, I also tried to do it all and just kind of, uh, ignore the fact or, or, um, uh, you know, sort of act the same way I was before from the perspective of being present and communication, and that wasn't realistic, you know. There there are hours in the day in the parents that as a parent, that you're not gonna be available. And, um, you know, I'd, I'd be getting back to clients a little bit later or, um, uh, uh, seeking some sort of accommodation from them. And eventually I just sort of told them. I said, you know, I'm dealing with my son, it's bath time, it's this and that, I'll get back to you. And, uh, it really started to dialogue. Most of my clients have kids. And, um, then a lot of times it opened up a discussion about their kids and they started giving me tips and you developed a bit more of a closer relationship. So, you know, I, I found people are fantastic about it, as long as you communicate that. And, uh, um, uh, and it ended up being, uh, a real big positive.

Laura Gurr: 19:06

And Tamara, what about you?

Tamara Ramsey: 19:08

Same thing for me, uh, my son likes to make the occasional cameo on Zoom. I deal with it as it happens. And most clients, mediators, arbitrators, judges are fairly understanding. Um, anecdotally I will say he made an appearance on a mediation wearing nothing, but his tighty whities.<laugh>

Laura Gurr: 19:32

<laugh> That's amazing.

Mark Flisfeder: 19:34

I'm glad you've now told the world that.

Laura Gurr: 19:35

Yeah.

Tamara Ramsey: 19:37

Yes. Well, at least they don't have pictures.

Laura Gurr: 19:40

<laugh> um, I think, you know, being honest and open, I think that's, you know, a theme that's coming out throughout this conversation. Just that, that normalizing those communitions, normalizing those discussions can lead for opportunities for connections with clients that, you know, you might not have had, if you hadn't been open about, you know, what's going on at home. Um, so speaking of, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about, you know, we are not the only ones, um, that are dealing with this it's happening through, throughout, you know, uh, the world. Um, but it's also happening throughout our staff. So did you have any staff that had children at home and, and how did you manage that and, and manage the performance there?

Tamara Ramsey: 20:28

Some of the staff with whom I work had school aged children, and I just know without even needing to have a conversation that they cannot come into the office while schools are closed and that they'll have distractions throughout the day. There will be shrill little children's voices in the background when we speak, and we all just need to be flexible and understanding

Mark Flisfeder: 20:51

My experience has been very similar to Tamara's. Um, my, my legal assistant, uh, has two boys. Uh, one of them is the same age as my daughter, uh, and, and frankly, we've had a lot of discussions about the challenges of doing school from home and technology challenges, getting kids to learn how to use technology that we sort of disparaged for so long. And now they're in front of screens all the time. Uh, we've connected and sort of bonded about, uh, using the printer, and how much printer toner we've gone through in one year from us, probably more than we did in the last eight years leading up to this pandemic. Um, and, and I just try to remind to be patient and understanding, uh, and just realize that, uh, everyone is doing their best. Uh, and you know, at the end of the day, uh, my assistant and frankly, all the staff I work with are just incredible people and they're doing amazing work.

Laura Gurr: 21:40

And Matt, did you have anything you wanted to add to that?

Matthew Huys: 21:43

Just echo the comments from, uh, Tamara and Mark, I think, uh, everyone's dealing with, from their own personal, um, uh, life at home and, you know, certainly with my assistant, she's had, um, uh, uh, had to deal with, uh, her children and, um, and everyone's gotta make accommodation and, uh, and have a bit of flexibility.

Laura Gurr: 22:05

So thank you guys for those, uh, for sharing your experiences, um, dealing with this. I, I know that it's, you know, and sharing your time, cause I know that you're being pulled in a million different directions right now. So just to, to end this, I was hoping that you could share your top three tips that you would give lawyers who may also be parents that help you say, stay sane, stay organized and productive. Um, or another way to put it would be, what advice would you have given yourself earlier on as parents or as practicing lawyers, knowing what you know now? So Matt, as the newest parent, maybe I'll start with you.

Matthew Huys: 22:49

<laugh> Um, my three tips would be, first of all, be flexible. Uh, you're gonna need to, uh, change your life, change your practice, how you work. Um, and you're gonna have to develop different routines, uh, as a parent. Um, the second is, you know, recognize that need for change. Don't, don't try to do it, uh, the way you've always been doing it. You have to, um, you have to amend things. You gotta be willing to change your routines, change your schedule, change your work practices. And the third thing I'd say is a as a parent and a lawyer is give yourself a break. Um, you're doing a lot, uh, you are, uh, navigating a lot of responsibility, both on the home front and at work. And, uh, you can't be too hard on yourself or a perfectionist.

Laura Gurr: 23:32

And Tamara?

Tamara Ramsey: 23:34

So my number one tip, which I think has been a theme throughout this conversation is be honest, which involves all the elements of communication we were talking about. Not trying to hide the fact that you're parenting, as well as lawyering. Uh, my tip number two is very much pandemic related. If you need privacy, then do what you need to do with your physical situation and childcare to try and make it happen. And my third tip is that it is all about that elusive balance.

Laura Gurr: 24:08

And Mark, I'll leave you with the last.

Mark Flisfeder: 24:12

Well, I mean, I will say I, I think that being a parent has made me a, a better lawyer. I find that since being, becoming a parent, I've been much more focused and sort of task-driven. Um, so, so this, I'm not sure if this is necessarily parent related or, or pandemic related, but early in my career, I had all these fears about missing deadlines, not being organized. Uh, I would wake up in the middle of the night fearing that I may have missed a, a limitation period, uh, and I never did, uh, but it was a constant fear. Uh, and so early in my, uh, career, uh, um, someone referred a book to me called"Getting Things Done" a guide to stress free productivity" uh, by David Allen. Uh, and the key message in that book is that for every task that comes your way, you should either do it, delegate, or defer. Uh, and I don't buy into everything in that book, but I do buy into that. Uh, but more importantly, it's to have a system in place, uh, what, whether it's Outlook reminders or, or a, a, a, you know, a good BF system, something in place, so that anything that comes your way, you can either do it if it's gonna be quick and over with, delegate if someone else should be doing it, uh, uh, um, or defer, put it aside and, and come back to it later,

Laura Gurr: 25:23

Those are really great tips. Um, so thank you all for your time and sharing your stories. Uh, I hope that everyone listening, enjoyed our discussion as much as I did. And for those listening, I just wanted to share that The Advocates' Society members, um, if you do have a family, you can connect with other members with families and get involved in The Advocates' Society. So the Young Advocates' Standing Committee has a family friendly working group. Um, historically this group has had an annual Santa Claus parade party, uh, which hopefully we can do post-COVID. Um, so just looking for opportunities, um, to connect with other parents who are lawyers, um, um, you can do that through The Advocates' Society. So thank you all again for your time. And, uh, we appreciate it.

Mark Flisfeder: 26:17

Thank you very much.

Matthew Huys: 26:18

Thanks for having me.

Tamara Ramsey: 26:19

Thank you.

Webnesh Haile: 26:21

Thank you to Laura Gurr, Tamara Ramsey, Mark Flisfeder, and Matt Huys for a candid and interesting discussion. Thanks to our production leads Ian Breneman, Natalia Rodriguez, Laura Gurr, Matthew Huys, and Jean-Simon Schoenholz. To Danielle Baglivo of Dentons, our technical sponsor for her editing assistance, and to The Advocates' Society team for their support. This is Web Haile signing off.

Speaker 1: 26:47

That's it for our show. We hope you enjoyed listening to this episode and that you'll tune in next time. If you

Speaker 2: 26:53

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Speaker 1: 26:59

Friends Who Argue is brought to you by The Advocates' Society, an association of advocates with over 6,000 members from all areas of practice across Canada. For more information about The Advocates' Society go to www.advocates.ca or follow us on Twitter at@advocates_SOC.

Speaker 2: 27:19

Until next time, we are Friends Who Argue.

Speaker 8: 27:29

I.