In this episode of Friends Who Argue, moderator Dominique Hussey reunites panelists Atrisha Lewis, Breanna Needham and Erin Durant who originally spoke at The Advocates’ Society 2019 Fall Convention panel on “Connecting to Achieve Change”.
The panel discusses:
Dominique Hussey is Vice-Chair & Toronto Managing Partner at Bennett Jones, as well as Treasurer of The Advocates’ Society. Dominique also leads the firm's Intellectual Property Litigation group and is co-head of its Innovation, Technology and Branding group.
Atrisha Lewis is a Partner in McCarthy Tétrault’s Litigation Group in Toronto. Her litigation practice focuses on commercial disputes, professional liability litigation, and product liability matters. Atrisha represents clients in the financial services and technology sectors and has argued before all levels of Court. In 2019, Atrisha was elected as a Bencher of the Law Society of Ontario.
Breanna Needham is an associate at DLA Piper (Canada) LLP in Toronto. She has a commercial litigation practice with a focus on civil fraud matters. Her practice often involves injunctions and extraordinary remedies, including obtaining Anton Piller (civil search), Mareva (asset freezing), and Norwich Pharmacal (third party disclosure) orders.
Erin Durant founded Durant Barristers in Ottawa after practicing as a partner at a major Canadian law firm. Erin's practice includes personal injury/insurance matters, defending professionals in negligence claims and disciplinary complaints. A former competitive athlete and NCCP certified coach, Erin has a particular interest in sports disputes and administration. She is the author of “It Burned Me All Down” a book on burnout and mental illness in Big Law and how to better support a high-performing workplace.
Land Acknowledgement
The Advocates’ Society acknowledges that our offices, located in Toronto, are on the customary and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Anishinabek, the Huron-Wendat and now home to many First Nations, Inuit, and Metis peoples. We acknowledge current treaty holders, the Mississaugas of the Credit and honour their long history of welcoming many nations to this territory.
While The Advocates’ Society is based in Toronto, we are a national organization with Directors and members located across Canada in the treaty and traditional territories of many Indigenous Peoples. We encourage our members to reflect upon their relationships with the Indigenous Peoples in these territories, and the history of the land on which they live and work.
We acknowledge the devastating impacts of colonization, including the history of residential schools, for many Indigenous peoples, families, and communities and commit to fostering diversity, equity, and inclusiveness in an informed legal profession in Canada and within The Advocates’ Society.
In this episode of Friends Who Argue, moderator Dominique Hussey reunites panelists Atrisha Lewis, Breanna Needham and Erin Durant who originally spoke at The Advocates’ Society 2019 Fall Convention panel on “Connecting to Achieve Change”.
The panel discusses:
Dominique Hussey is Vice-Chair & Toronto Managing Partner at Bennett Jones, as well as Treasurer of The Advocates’ Society. Dominique also leads the firm's Intellectual Property Litigation group and is co-head of its Innovation, Technology and Branding group.
Atrisha Lewis is a Partner in McCarthy Tétrault’s Litigation Group in Toronto. Her litigation practice focuses on commercial disputes, professional liability litigation, and product liability matters. Atrisha represents clients in the financial services and technology sectors and has argued before all levels of Court. In 2019, Atrisha was elected as a Bencher of the Law Society of Ontario.
Breanna Needham is an associate at DLA Piper (Canada) LLP in Toronto. She has a commercial litigation practice with a focus on civil fraud matters. Her practice often involves injunctions and extraordinary remedies, including obtaining Anton Piller (civil search), Mareva (asset freezing), and Norwich Pharmacal (third party disclosure) orders.
Erin Durant founded Durant Barristers in Ottawa after practicing as a partner at a major Canadian law firm. Erin's practice includes personal injury/insurance matters, defending professionals in negligence claims and disciplinary complaints. A former competitive athlete and NCCP certified coach, Erin has a particular interest in sports disputes and administration. She is the author of “It Burned Me All Down” a book on burnout and mental illness in Big Law and how to better support a high-performing workplace.
Land Acknowledgement
The Advocates’ Society acknowledges that our offices, located in Toronto, are on the customary and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Anishinabek, the Huron-Wendat and now home to many First Nations, Inuit, and Metis peoples. We acknowledge current treaty holders, the Mississaugas of the Credit and honour their long history of welcoming many nations to this territory.
While The Advocates’ Society is based in Toronto, we are a national organization with Directors and members located across Canada in the treaty and traditional territories of many Indigenous Peoples. We encourage our members to reflect upon their relationships with the Indigenous Peoples in these territories, and the history of the land on which they live and work.
We acknowledge the devastating impacts of colonization, including the history of residential schools, for many Indigenous peoples, families, and communities and commit to fostering diversity, equity, and inclusiveness in an informed legal profession in Canada and within The Advocates’ Society.
Welcome to Friends Who Argue a podcast from The Advocate Society.
Speaker 2:Each episode will bring you conversations with advocates across all areas of litigation who share their stories, insights, tips, and tricks from their journeys. As advocates,
Speaker 1:We hope you'll find this podcast informative, inspiring, and most of all entertaining, and that you'll subscribe to our podcast on iTunes to stay up to date on the latest episodes.
Speaker 3:Hi everyone. I'm Dominique Kazi, treasurer at the Advocate Society and Intellectual Property Litigator and Vice-Chair and Toronto managing partner at Bennett Jones. On this episode of Friends Who Argue, I'm joined by a panel of powerhouse lawyers who've come together to talk about connecting to achieve change. This is actually a reunion because these three extremely accomplished and influential women spoke on this topic as panelists at the Advocate Society 2019 Fall Convention in beautiful Bahamas near a beach way back in the olden days when we could still travel with ease. The Advocate Society invited them to speak on this panel because of the massive impact each one of them had made on the work and the lives of advocates through their sheer grit, commitment, and meaningful connection, which I think will be very clear to you when you hear them speak with us today. A lot has changed since then, and obviously not least of that is our ability to gather for large conventions in warm places and otherwise. So we wanted to use this format to explore the personal changes each person had experienced, and in particular, how connecting to achieve change has affected their personal lives and their careers as advocates. So I would like to invite our guests, Tricia, Brianna, and Erin, to introduce themselves, starting with Tricia.
Speaker 4:Thanks, Dawn. So my name is Tricia Lewis and I'm a partner at McCarthy Tero. I am a commercial litigator with a very broad commercial litigation practice, and in 2019, I was elected as a lawyer venture in Toronto at the Law Society of Ontario. And, um, so when I was elected in 2019, it was actually, um, a pretty remarkable thing to have happened because, um, historically, uh, ventures were more senior members of the profession and it was unusual for a relatively junior call to have been elected. And I was elected, uh, as a sixth year lawyer at the time. And, uh, one thing that I, you know, pride myself on and was happy, uh, to have been elected on was a platform that I ran on, which was really centered on equity and also centered on being a recent call and recent call issues. And so, um, uh, so that's one of the things that, um, you know, I needed a lot of support from a lot of various members of the profession, um, to have actually achieved, uh, that election. And so it's something that I'm quite proud of.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Tricia. Brianna?
Speaker 5:Well, following the fantastic atria Lewis<laugh> is very, very difficult. Um, but I'll do my best. Um, my name's Brianna Nedam. I am a, an associate at DLA Piper Canada. I practice complex commercial litigation with a focus on civil fraud matters, and I really like doing injunctions and extraordinary remedies. If you go to Anton, pillar of Marva Norwich, I'm here for it. Um, for my part, the panel we, in 2019, I was involved because of the Roving Room initiative. So for those who don't know what that is, previously at all Good Hall, there used to be a one very large, gorgeous, fancy roving room for the men and the equivalent of like a room closet for the women. And it was not only an access issue in terms of space, but also in terms of representation and, um, access to mentoring and, and just a, a representative example of the exclusion that happens in the profession. So, um, with the support of, of many members or the bar from retired judges to partners at big firms to, so pracs, um, people got engaged on that issue. Uh, there was a large petition and in less than two weeks, the law society agreed to renovate the robing room into a one all gender, all access room for everybody. And that change, uh, those renovations were finished in 2019.
Speaker 3:Terrific. Thanks so much Brianna and Erin.
Speaker 4:My name is Erin Duran. I'm a litigator and founder at Durant Barristers, which is a remote law firm that was founded during the Covid 19 pandemic. I have a general civil litigation and investigations practice throughout Ontario, uh, that focuses primarily on professional liability insurance and, uh, sports clients. The reason I was invited to, uh, The Bahamas, which was a highlight of my career, I must add, was, uh, because of some of my work supporting both Brianna and Tricia's, uh, in initiatives that they have, uh, already mentioned, but also for raising funds and attention for pro Bono Ontario. So back in 2018 and early 2019, pro Bono Ontario had announced that due to lack of funding, they were going to have to close their law help centers, which provided, uh, pro bono legal support for people at, uh, courtrooms. And, um, I knew that a lot of people on social media, a lot of young lawyers felt very strongly about those law help centers, both as a way to give back to access the justice, but also as a way to grow their own litigation skills, uh, court experience, experience working with clients. So, uh, myself and some other senior people at my firm at the time, uh, decided to film some short little videos and put them online, and it became a little bit of a viral thing and culminated with the former Chief Justice of Canada, Beverly McLaughlin filming a video, and we ended up raising the money that was needed and getting some federal government support. And most of that was because of the attention on, on social media and the connections made through them. Um, so yeah, that's, that's my piece to the puzzle.
Speaker 3:Thank you. And actually, that's a good transition for us to talk a little bit more about what the 2019 Fall Convention panel on connecting to achieve change was about, and I guess the significance of the connections. Erin, can you talk a little bit more about that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I still remember the day, Dom that you called me. Uh, I was in my office and you called because you were one of the conference organizers, and you had this idea to put together this panel with myself, Brianna and Tricia. And, you know, I couldn't be more thrilled that the Advocate Society was making space at their, one of their keynote conferences for a panel like this. And the timing couldn't have been, were perfect. All of these initiatives that we have discussed, uh, Brianna's Roaming Room initiative at Running for Venture, the pro bono law Help Center crisis, all seemed to be happening in a relatively short period of time. And it was one of the first times I remember in law seeing social media movements really spill over in the legal profession to achieve change and to connect people. And the people I've met through some of those initiatives, um, you know, are still some of my best friends today. So, um, so yeah, that's what the conference was about. It was bringing us together to talk about those issues. The, the audience at Ball Convention at the time tends to be more senior members of the bar, although more and more younger lawyers and younger firm owners are going. Um, you know, it was great to be able to talk about social media, the importance of connection, the importance of discussing important issues to the profession in such an audience and with such a, a diverse audience and a senior audience. It was a very powerful moment, I think, for the Advocate Society, and it's very nice that you were able to bring us all back together to, to recap it and then also talk about, uh, what's happened since.
Speaker 3:Oh, well, very happy to have the opportunity. Brianna, do you have anything to add to that?
Speaker 5:I mean, I echo all of Erin's comments, which I think really sum it up. Um, it was an amazing experience and it was a, just a confluence of things that arose from these successful social media engagement engagement initiatives. And that really resulted in visible representative change on several fronts. And we were the most junior people at this big fancy conference by many years. And not only was our panel, all women in law, they included a woman, a black woman is a panelist, a black woman is our moderator. Like, it felt like being part of the change we wanted to see and the proportionate representation of our panel as compared to the representation in the audience and the profession. Uh, it was great to see like that front and center at the Key conference for the year to have been involved and to see the support and interests we had for it. And, you know, people ask me, you know, how do you know so-and-so? Or How did you meet so-and-so? And at this point, my answer is almost always that I either met them at work or on social media. And so I think this was a great way to, to bring the idea of ascribing value to using digital space to our more senior colleagues at the bar.
Speaker 3:I agree. And so post 2019, the entire world changed, but setting Covid side, lots of things have changed for each of you personally. And I'm wondering if you can share some of the changes that you've experienced and whether you believe that some of the positive results of your approach to connection have contributed to the changes in your lives. Erin, do you wanna start?
Speaker 4:Um, you know, the pandemic for me has been, um, a very interesting experience to, to say the least. I've been very vocal on social media about some of the personal challenges that I've had, and for those who aren't on Twitter or on LinkedIn and haven't been following along, I went through a, a very difficult time in early 2021 where I ended up taking a medical leave of absence from work for a couple of months. I had issues with anxiety and depression, um, which I feel more comfortable describing as a burnout. But, you know, in reality, reality it was a mental health crisis. And coming out of that, I spent a lot of time, you know, thinking about what I wanted to do in law, what would be best for me, um, you know, what would be the best way for me to affect change going forward, both for my own work environment, but also for, um, the people I work with. And, um, it was through working with my therapist and just sitting down thinking about, you know, what I wanted to achieve, what was important to me that I, I realized I didn't need to be in an existing firm, and it might actually be far easier to affect change by being a bit of an outsider and just starting my own business and my own firm. And I know not everybody has that option available to them. You know, you need to have some clients or a way to generate business. I was fortunate enough to have have clients, so, you know, in the middle of a global pandemic, right after coming off of a, a really terrible<laugh> personal, uh, mental health experience, I decided to jump in and start my own law firm, uh, which a lot of people may think is a silly thing to do, but it's been absolutely great. The firm, um, Duran Barristers really benefits from the connections I've made over the past several years, particularly, um, through social media, through participating in Advocate Society events, through the people I met, um, at Balk convention in The Bahamas. You know, most of my work comes from other lawyers who I've connected with either virtually and in person. And it has allowed me to start over from scratch with a blank slate to build a firm that, that, you know, is it in line with my values and can do things a little bit differently because you don't have to change existing systems. You can, you know, start from scratch and if it doesn't work, you can try something new. So.
Speaker 3:Well, I feel compelled to say that I don't think anybody would've found what you did. Silly, brave. Absolutely. And I know that your decision to be so open with your mental health experiences has really helped a lot of people. I, I know that for a fact. Tricia, what about your personal life changes?
Speaker 4:I've had, I've had a lot of changes. It's been a wild couple of years, so, um, since the panel, I had a baby, I made partner at my firm. Um, and those are kind of two big, big significant life changes,<laugh>. Um, but there's been a lot of other changes, frankly. Um, you know, McCarthy's had its first ever one l summer recruitment process for, uh, black and indigenous only students. And through that process, we hired, I believe my number might be wrong, but I believe we hired seven black and indigenous summer students. And, um, you know, that was a, a i I think that was a critical mass and I think, you know, that has had an impact on the firm. Um, and so there's definitely been, um, a lot of, uh, you know, changes in society that I think have really made me reflect, um, you know, I've really thought about, you know, who I work with. Um, I think before my approach to, to work and getting business and business development was, you know, take whatever you can get. And I don't think that's a bad approach, but I, you know, I'm really thinking about now who shares my values, who do I actually wanna work with? And I've been very, very, uh, deliberate about that. So I've been working and trying to reach out to, you know, general counsel that are black, that are racialized, um, that are allies, because I think this profession can be really difficult. The job can be really hard, and I think it's a lot made a lot easier if you're working with people, um, both who are senior to you and junior to you who just get it and who are, who have your back and support you. So I've definitely seen a shift in, in, in the work that I'm chasing, frankly. And, and I think, um, you know, I, I think society is now recognizing the importance of being a bit more socially conscious and, and I think that's, that's been really
Speaker 3:Nice to see as well. Brianna, can you tell us a little bit about some of the changes you've experienced?
Speaker 5:For sure. I'm, um, a little more junior in practice than either Erin or Tricia. So mine are not quite as spicy and exciting. Um, but I did recently, uh, earlier this year make a lateral move to another firm. I joined at d a Piper Canada and the Toronto office. And for me, it, it was a bit of a mix of what both Tricia and Erin have discussed and focusing on, you know, myself and the ability to build and grow the kind of practice that I see myself having, you know, from now and in well into the future. And really thinking about, as Tricia said, you know, who I'm working with, the type of work I do, who shares my values, how can I get involved? How can I use this workspace to, to create change and, and to build the kind of career that I want. Um, and so coming to a firm that included, um, a partnership structure that doesn't have income partners, I think it was important to me. I wanted the ability to build and grow, um, my fraud investigations interests to work somewhere where, you know, my focus and interest on the reading, the writing, the research, the opinions part of practice was not gonna be a problem. Um, here I'm also part of our student committee, so I get to have involvement and input in the hiring decisions. So I feel like I'm making change at that, you know, initial level as well. I have a lot of autonomy here and I'm involved in a lot of ways and appreciated in a lot of ways that I maybe wasn't at other places that I've worked. And so for me, that's been the biggest change, is to be able to not only be fortunate enough to connect with others who share the same values and which has enabled me to engage authentically, but to also find like a workspace where I can really be myself in a supportive environment and while still doing all that good work at the same time.
Speaker 3:Great, positive changes. And so I'd like to talk a little bit more now about how you connect, and in particular, I'd like each of you to share the practices that you implement regularly to connect with others professionally. And I'm hoping you can also explain how you keep your connections authentic and positive. Brianna, why don't we stay with you?
Speaker 5:Sure, yeah. I try to connect with people as regularly as I can. You know, whether it's by text, direct message, you know, teams chat with my colleagues, some random emails. I try to focus on junior lawyers, students and new calls. Cause I feel like, you know, not only hard enough starting out in what is already a hard job, but many of our students in new calls now are starting out in the middle of a pandemic. Um, and that can be very difficult for them. So, you know, if I see someone at civil practice court or someone running an initiative, I send'em a note to like, let them know that I, I see them, I see what you're doing, you know, you have my support, I'm thinking of you. And I think like there's really a big positive impact you can have in engaging in these types of connections. You know, particularly as I mentioned earlier, where we've moved to more of an online and remote way of engaging as a result of the pandemic. And I know a lot of people think you can't get that real authentic engagement. You can't really get that connection remotely. But, you know, I joined a firm completely remotely in the pandemic. And for some of my colleagues who I work with closely, we still haven't met yet. So if you really are interested in engaging with people and you really put in the effort, you really can have those, you know, real human connections with people even in a remote environment.
Speaker 3:Thank you. And Trisha, how about you?
Speaker 4:So I really, um, I think leaned into my interests to connect with people. So, um, you know, I realized I'm passion. You know, I think this is not a surprise. I'm very passionate about equity issues. So I've really leaned into cable, for instance. Um, I joined the cable advocacy committee, um, to work on, you know, interventions and other advocacy that cable, the Canadian Association of Black Lawyers can do. Um, you know, I've recently tried to connect with the Black Council Network, so I'm just very, I, I think I'm, I'm more targeted about who, what my passions are and connecting with people who share those. And I think it's been pretty well received. I I kind of do connections the old fashioned way, especially now with things opening up, you know, I like to meet people for lunches or walks even, or coffee. Um, you know, you can, you can do that on online virtually as well. But it's really, you know, I I find like the one-on-one setting up one-on-one connections to be, to be really, um, helpful, I think to, um, social media has been a great way to connect. Um, you know, I have a, a a recent example, um, you know, about, um, the minimum salary that I'd love to chat about. Um, but one of the, you know, things that was really interesting to me was I was concerned about a vote at the law society about, uh, the minimum salary. Um, and, and just to contextualize that, um, in 2019, or sorry, 2018, the previous bench voted to approve a minimum salary for students, which was consistent with the minimum wage. And, um, this bench sought to reverse that. I was concerned about that because I thought, um, you know, we need to be able to pay our league students a, a minimum wage at the very least. And so, um, you know, that was something I was concerned about and I tweeted about on social media. And, um, you know, the reception following that, the immediate reception was quite resounding and impressive. And it, and it made me realize, you know, how, how we are able to connect quickly and with, with a lot of different people through things like Twitter.
Speaker 3:Thank you. And Erin, how about you
Speaker 4:Before I get into talking about me, just to build on, um, you know, what Tricia is saying, you know, social media and, um, you know, participating in discussions with, um, you know, traditional media is a great way to achieve change. And what at Trisha's doing at the Law Society, I think is, is amazing because traditionally you don't hear much about what the ventures are working on, uh, what's going on at the law society, you know, in past years. There may be little bits published here and there, um, in the Law Times and other publications. But I find that attrition's approach of communicating clearly in, in short snippets on social media, what the key issues are, what the ventures are discussing is really bringing more attention to the law society and more attention to these issues. And it's getting picked up and, you know, the, the national news, the Toronto Star more and more. And, you know, I think for the next time there's a venture's election, my hope is that the younger generation who's been following along, whether Trisha's been doing and actively supporting her on social media, will be far more engaged in terms of the, the venture elections and contributing to the profession. And maybe even more young lawyers will consider running for venture and, you know, wanting to follow an Tricia's footstep. So I think what she's done, in particular, the law society has been so commendable and, and putting the voice to it on social media and by her connections have been been fabulous. Um, now turning to, to myself, um, you know, the way that I connect is sort of a mix between the, the old fashioned model and, you know, the social media model. So when I first started practicing law, my, my first mentor described marketing and, and connecting is sort of walking around with a bag of, of seeds and just throwing them on the ground. And you would never know what seeds would actually grow into, into plants. Um, and that's sort of how I view, um, you know, networking, connecting with people. You know, I walk around, I, I connect with whoever wants to connect with me. I I participate in conferences, I go to whatever I can in person once we're able to be in person. And, you know, I've had faith over the years that eventually, and some of those early seeds that I've planted and people I've met will, will turn into work and, and turn into, um, you know, great career connections. And that's, that's proven to be the case. Um, you know, I'm now about 10 years out and people who I met in my first two years of practice who I was on Yas with the young, the Young Advocate standing committee are, are now referring me work regularly, and I'm working with co-counsel with some of them. So, you know, I, I do some of that old school, you know, traditional legal marketing. Um, some of the new things that I do utilizing technology, um, in addition to obviously being extremely active on, on Twitter and LinkedIn, is using a program called Calendly. And what Calendly does is it syncs with your Outlook calendar, and you can program it to have, um, certain rules for different types of appointments. So I have an appointment that anybody can book with me at any time, Mondays and Fridays. I leave aside, um, two 15 minute slots for these meetings and, and literally anyone can go, uh, book the appointment and, and connect with me. And I advertise this on, on LinkedIn. And most of the time the people that want to connect are either young lawyers who are struggling, who are looking for a mentor, who want some guidance on the file. Um, I've been connected with a lot of mid-level lawyers who have been following what I've done with starting my own practice, and they, they just want some advice in terms of the software I'm using. You know, some of the things I've learned from starting a practice and these little connections, these little 15 minute chats have been been great for getting referral sources. I've gotten some co-counsel opportunities from it from people who were, were struggling with managing a complex litigation file. And, and frankly, it's also been a, a great social outlet for me. Um, one of the concerns I had about practicing on my own in a small firm, um, was that, you know, I would miss the, the network and the community that comes with having a large firm behind you. So, you know, by using these Calendly appointments and connecting with people on social media and then turning those into, into real life discussions, I've been able to build a, a pretty cool little network of, of people who, who help each other out. So, so yeah, that's what I've been doing externally. And, um, I've also been thinking about connecting internally. So our firm is, is fully remote. Um, I'm, as I said, I'm in Ottawa, my associates in Toronto, my law clerks in Ferry, we have another lawyer starting who is also in Ottawa, but a different end of the city. Um, so we're gonna be working remote, um, possibly forever. And, you know, one thing I'm trying to foster within the firm is, even though we're separated, you know, how do we, we keep each other together and, and check in with each other? So, um, some of the things that we're doing is every morning we have a really brief sort of water cooler chat, you know, 15 minutes or so where we just sort of talk about whatever, you know, whatever's happening in our lives, whatever happening, you know, last evening, what we're watching on tv, um, you know, we, we brief each other on our plan for the day, and then we, we get to work. Um, we also try to have video chat as much as possible, um, you know, just to, you know, see how each other are doing rather than just having the telephone calls and the emails. Um, you know, I'm really trying to, you know, keep us connected and pick up on some of those non-verbal cues that you might see in, in a, in a physical office.
Speaker 3:So you talked about all kinds of different ways of connecting and social media was just one of them, but with social media connections, you are really putting yourself out there. And each of you has gained a certain degree of fame or notoriety as a result of having put yourself out there. Has your visibility and your outreach, outreach, especially on social media, had any downsides? And if so, how do you deal with these issues? Maybe we'll start with Patricia for this one.
Speaker 4:So there's, there's definitely been a few downsides. Um, so, um, I would say, and, and I'm, I'm not even sure if it's really about social media, but, um, you know, w w I'm very publicly supportive of equity initiatives at the law society. And so, um, you know, that's one thing that I've been, um, you know, very outspoken on, very passionate about. And, you know, I, it's made me a bit of a target, if you will, um, for people who are antiquity. Um, and, you know, there's mental health impacts associated with, you know, receiving, um, you know, hate messages or, um, you know, when people, you know, aren't necessarily hateful, but say things that are very hurtful, like, you know, equity, they, you know, they're, you know, they don't believe in equity or, you know, there's no evidence of discrimination in the legal profession. Um, you know, some other, I think downsides are, you know, I think because I'm so out there, there's a lot of expectations, um, for me, and, you know, managing the weight of that expectation can be challenging. I think I'm also asked to do a lot, um, perhaps more than my peers because I'm, you know, out there and, and public and, um, and, and you know, I, I have a bit of doubt sometimes because to me, the things that I'm outspoken about are so obvious. And when I'm one of the only ones that are outspoken about these topics, it makes me wonder, you know, why am I the only one and why am I alone? And you do, you do question whether or not, um, you know, you're out to lunch or not. Um, you know, if you're not really, if you're, if you're kind of the lone voice. So, um, I think those have been sort of the, the challenges that I've personally experienced.
Speaker 3:Thank you for sharing that. And Erin, have you had a comparable experience?
Speaker 4:Hi. And you know, I'm just gonna pick up on where Patricia left off on, you know, feeling alone sometimes, and you know, it being challeng and being challenging to be outspoken and, you know, I wasn't planning to speak on this, but I sort of felt that too at times. Um, you know, it's far easier, I think, to just practice law, do your work and, and go home, you know, to just focus on, you know, those immediate tasks. And I think those of us who, who are a bit more outward looking at the profession as a whole and aren't, you know, naval gazing at ourself and our own practices as much as, as focusing on the larger issues, um, can get a bit exhausted and can get a bit burnt out from it. And, you know, it didn't, you know, it didn't lead into my burnout situa situation directly, but I do think that, you know, focusing on these bigger picture issues and constantly feeling like you're fighting or you're, you're, you're, you're swimming upstream or you're the only one, or, you know, one of a few can be exhausting. And, you know, I've certainly felt that, and I've certainly, you know, wondered, um, you know, about Tricia at the law society, you know, constantly being the one that's had to fight over these things that are so basic, like paying our students a minimum wage. Like, I don't know how that's possibly a debate, but it is. Um, so, you know, I would say that I've seen that negative impact of being someone who's out there and, and pushing for change. Um, you know, I don't know if people think that something that we, we'd like to do, you know, certainly it's something I'm passionate about and I know Brianna and Shar are passionate about too, but it, it's, it would be far, far easier to just, you know, do our work and go home. Um, but, you know, question, um, you know, in terms of, of me and, and negative impacts from my social media, I've, I've been relatively lucky. Um, I've had very few overt challenges to, to what I've done. I think over time I've been very, very good at knowing where the line is and how not to the stuff over it, you know? So obviously commenting on anything involving a firm client has always been, um, offside. And, and you don't do that, and you can't do that, even if the client is involved in something that you don't personally think is great. Um, you know, I, you have to bite your tongue. And I'm still adjusting to now being free of some of those constraints. Now that I have a very small practice and very small client base, I, I see some of my former firm clients, um, you know, that are in the news, and I, I still feel like, oh, I shouldn't share that. Um, so I'm, I'm, I'm getting used to being free from that, from that shackle. But, um, you know, I, I do think that when you're in a, a firm, um, you need to be very careful about what you say and, and figure out where that line is at your firm. Um, I know that there's times where I've towed the line or even jumped over the line, um, and, you know, oftentimes when I've had those feelings, it's when I, I get a little call from from someone saying, you know, if you maybe take that one down or, or tone that one down a little bit. So you do have to be careful. Um, you know, I do expect I ruffle people's feathers who are more conservative on things. Um, and I think in the past, lawyers would, um, be very concerned about upsetting others and, and saying things that somebody who's might more conservative might be offended over. But I think, as Tricia has said already, um, I like to align myself with and work with people who, who are, uh, pushing the boundaries and who are concerned about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and women in law. So I certainly have no shortage of work.
Speaker 3:Brianna, what's your experience been?
Speaker 4:I think the
Speaker 5:Comments that Trisha and Erin have made, uh, you know, really, really ring home. I, I think we go out of our way, you know, put out on a, a sunny face and put vo positive vibes out there into the virtual space that is social media. But I think one thing that doesn't come up all that often outside of perhaps this discussion is that challenging the system and, and pointing out that there are issues in the status quo is not fun. It is, it's hard work. Um, it's anxiety inducing. You're putting yourself out there on, on an issue that, you know, you're, you know, full well people are going to disagree with you about. And I think that's why so many people who advocate for change are so tired. And I think particularly during the pandemic where we've seen a lot of, you know, big kind of social discussions happen, and that's a part of the discussion that doesn't often come up. Um, so that's why that support is so important. And that support, it's, it's like a network, right? You have your first level, your, you know, your tight group, people you talk to, and it's like a spider web, you know, each ring has to go out and you've got the tight interweave, but there are more levels of support beyond that. And, you know, one of those is also the space you work in. And my experience is that, you know, having worked at an employer that didn't support my views, initiatives and engagement, it, it can be very, very difficult to not have that. And that, that space you work in is such a huge part of our day-to-day that having that support and working somewhere where I'm now supported, I can tell you, makes a huge difference in the, the exhaustion that I think comes with, you know, challenging the status quo and some of these things. I think this is the way the profession is moving, this is the space that advocacy is moving into. And so those who are skeptical of some of this, um, online advocacy and social media use would do well to take notice of that. So yeah, I, I have experienced some negative impacts, but I think the, the more broader negative impact that people don't discuss is this kind of advocacy fatigue that comes from doing some of this.
Speaker 3:A very interesting perspective, and obviously it came out in all three of your responses, and I think you're exactly right, Brianna, it's, it's not thought about as often as it should be. I think people think that others are naturally constituted to be change makers or not, and that's, and can therefore withstand the stress that goes along with it. But, uh, it's obviously not the case. So looking ahead, do you think the legal community will continue to shift in the ways that lawyers connect? Do you see more authenticity, more humor in the future? Are you seeing this among new lawyers? Brianna, you, you alluded to this a little bit, but I'm going to actually start with Tricia to hear her views.
Speaker 4:I, I think so I think the legal profession is changing. You know, uh, just a small example. McCarthy's has a November 11th event every year because the courts are closed. So it's an opportunity for our litigators to get together and connect. And typically the event, or historically the event has been, you know, we share our war stories and, um, you know, sometimes we roast each other and it's, and, and that's usually the tone. And this year, um, it took a very different tone. It was, you know, people talking about their personal struggles and their failures, and it, it was, you know, the first time we had, had had that kind of atone to the event. And I think it reflects, um, just a broader willingness to be, you know, open and honest about struggles that we're facing and things that are in our lives. I know that, you know, I personally am very upfront with people about, um, my childcare obligations. And so when I, when I have to end a meeting at four 30 because I have to go home and attend to my daughter, I, I, I just say that, and I don't, I don't, you know, pretend or, or, or, or couch in anything else. And, and I think the reception has always been complete understanding and accommodation. Um, and so I, I'm, I think there's, there is a shift to being more open about what's actually happening in your lives, and I think people are more willing to accommodate.
Speaker 3:And I do think that is a huge change from the past. And Erin, what are your observations?
Speaker 4:So in terms of, um, you know, practices for achieving positive changes, you know, I've, I've really used this opportunity of starting my own firm to build an environment where, um, where I want to practice, where I'll be happy practicing. You know, I still have probably 25, 30 years left of, of practice in me, and, you know, and I, I couldn't continue on practicing the way I was before. And, and, you know, I wouldn't make it that long in this career. And I love the job, you know, I love the work, I love the litigation. Um, you know, so we're experimenting with doing a lot of things, you know, to improve, uh, our firm, our lives in law. And, you know, we're sharing a lot of it really, really publicly. And, and I discuss it with other firm leaders that wanna connect with me. Um, you know, and, and the biggest thing that we're, we're trying to do is think of ways where we can earn money outside of the traditional billable hour so that we're not all tied to having to work more hours to make more money. So we have a lot of clients that pay us, uh, flat fees per month. Um, we're experimenting with some subscription services for repeat clients so that the client has a, a set monthly fee, and also we have a set monthly income. Um, we're piloting the, the a four day work week with some of our people, um, to see if we can make that work in a litigation setting. Um, I'll say that I've tried it personally, and I'm not organized enough to only work four days a week, but others in our office, um, have loved it. And there hasn't been a dip in, in overall productivity as a result, which has been been really fascinating. Um, and we're also trying to keep our overhead as, as low as possible so that we don't have to work as hard, um, you know, to cover the cost of having a law firm. And in that way, the pandemic has presented us with a amazing opportunity. Um, you know, when I started my own firm, I didn't need to go out and get a fancy office space because no one was ever going to be in it<laugh>, and clients didn't wanna see me. Um, and I'm finding now that clients still don't want to come see me. And, you know, I haven't really had to, to have clients into a, a rented space or a co uh, or a, a shared space at all yet. So, so yeah, we're sort of capitalizing on the opportunities that the pandemic has, has given us and the opportunities, opportunities presented to a, a very small and new firm to, to try to build something, which, you know, the purpose is isn't just making as much money, you know, as we can, you know, the purpose is, you know, building a firm where we're we can all be happy and healthy and, and of course, successful, um, in our work.
Speaker 3:Thank Karen and Brianna, what about you?
Speaker 5:I think, yeah, like the, the legal community is definitely shifting the way lawyers connect. You're seeing, um, a lot more authenticity. Um, you know, the, the, I would say just the vibe is very different, even though when I sort out in practice, um, in terms of, you know, people setting boundaries where they engage, you know, availability, like all the things Erin and Tricia just mentioned. And I think too, even in terms of reception, um, of, of initiatives like the ones we did and, and how new lawyers and new calls are engaging. And, you know, back when we were doing some of these things a few years ago, I think we were all seen as real disturbers on some issues and in a short amount of time. That's something that has really changed. Um, I received a comment last year about how my views and commentary are, you know, often more palatable or more quote unquote reasonable that compared to some of the newer calls who are more disruptive. And I think for me, that's given me perspective about the type of like the, the fire, the spice, the heat, the next generation's bringing in. And I'm really here for it. I think firms and the rest of the profession need to be ready. And I, I think some of it, like Aaron mentioned, is likely been exacerbated by and, and pushed ahead as part of the, the results of the pandemic. Were in this digital space, this is how we're connecting now. Um, you know, if you don't take those hard lines, make those changes, be authentic, draw those boundaries, uh, when you're working from home, maybe 20 feet from your bed, well, when are you gonna do it?
Speaker 3:Thank you. And finally, I'd love to hear your top tips for advocates that want to shift the way they approach their practices to achieve positive changes in their own lives and their own practices. Brianna, do you have any advice?
Speaker 5:It's always a tough question. It's always so much easier to give advice than to follow your own advice. Um, but mine is generally to tell people stop worrying about what everyone else is doing, because trying to engage in, in, in authentic way or to mimic others, it's never gonna work long-term if it's not something that works for you. If it's not something that, that is you and I know tra this is hard because traditionally our profession, I mean, it was, it was full of older white men. And I think there's a recognition that different things work for different people, um, different types of work, work for different people, different ways of working work for different people. And firms are, are slowly starting to recognize this. Um, like my example is, I hate working from the office. Like I'm a full on remote work person. And the Pan Pandemic has had so many positive changes for me this way that I've been able to assert that a little bit more authentically. I think as mentioned earlier, you know, I really wanna focus on research and drafting and opinion writing, uh, that part of litigation versus the whole trial lawyer dream. And, and now I let people know that's my priority, where before, you know, I thought I had to check the boxes for the things you have to do to be a good litigator. And, uh, so you gotta let people know your priorities, I think, and, and let them know that this is what works for you in terms of changing things. I think it may sound cliche, but like, be the change you wanna see and don't back down on it. I mean, I think often a lot of the time people are waiting for someone to be bold enough to step up and say something. I always say, you, you won't get what you don't ask for. The worst thing anyone is ever gonna say to you is no. So like, don't be afraid to just step up to the plate, swing for the fences, get, you're gonna get that home run more often than not, and you're gonna be surprised even yourself by doing it.
Speaker 3:Thank you. And Trisha, how about you?
Speaker 4:So I agree with everything Brianna has said, and then I would just add, um, you know, if you're waiting for someone to, you know, send that, take that bold stand. I actually think another way you can help is really by amplifying, you know, that person or supporting that person. We talked a lot about how it's hard to be out there and to, um, you know, be, be a leader in change. And I think, you know, people don't appreciate how much, um, support from others really does help. Um, and so, you know, if you can't be the person that's, that's leading the charge, think about how you can support others. And I also think, you know, I'd like to take, um, a broad view of my allies on, on particular issues, and I think people know who your allies are, and I think it's important to, to build them up and, and not, and not, you know, be overly um, publicly critical of them because I think that doesn't necessarily do a lot of good.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. And Erin, how about you?
Speaker 4:Uh, and you know, I know that a lot of listening practice within the, the big firm environment, because that's traditionally where the Advocate Society membership tends to be. And you know, I think right now there is a lot of opportunity for younger lawyers to, to push for change within those firms. You know, I, I know from speaking to, to my friends who are our partners and law firm leaders in those environments, that firms know that the pandemic has been really hard on people. And firms know that, you know, that there's been a lot of work that needs to be done during a very challenging time in the world. Um, and people are thinking about, okay, like what are some, some little ways where we can make things better? And one of the things that, that I did prior to, to changing my career and that I know others have done is, is to just sit down and think about some of those smaller stressors that exist within a big firm. Um, you know, within your day-to-day work that might be able to be fixed. Um, you know, little things that could be changed. Just, you know, the way that you communicate with your, your legal support staff, you know, the way that work is delegated, um, you know, the hours of work where we're non-urgent emails are, are exchanged. And, you know, if you have associate committees, it could be a project for your committee just to think about, okay, like what are some little annoying things that cause us stress that are unnecessary and that it might not even cost the firm any, any money to fix, but will make our, our day-to-day existence a bit easier. Because we do work in a, a really hard job. It's a really difficult profession. It's a, a grind, you know, keeping up with the work and keeping up with the clients. But if we can make our work environments, uh, you know, uh, a relaxing, more easygoing place where we feel comfortable, it will make the actual legal work, um, you know, if it were enjoyable. So I think we can use this time where I think that lawyer employees have a bit of an advantage with, you know, the, the fact that the turnover rates are are going up. There's so much work to be done. Um, it's known that a lot of people are unhappy. I think it's now is the time to ask for change, both for the little things and, and to keep pushing for some of the bigger changes that Atria and Brianna have already spoken about.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. In fact, Erin, Tricia and Brianna, thank you so much for chatting with me. I really enjoyed your perspectives. They were terrific. Thank you for your leadership and, uh, it was, it was great to have this opportunity to have a reunion.
Speaker 6:Thank
Speaker 7:You to Dominique Koi, Tricia Lewis, Brianna Nedum, and Erin Durant for an inspiring and candid conversation. Thank you to my co-editor, Ian Brennaman, our production leads, Kristen Domer, Natalia Rodriguez, and Zoe Ox Sal, and to the Advocates Society team for their support. This is Web High co-editor, friends Who Argue Signing Off.
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Speaker 2:Until next time, we are friends who argue.