Friends Who Argue
Friends Who Argue
The New Normal – Young advocates views on work arrangements “post-pandemic”
From fall 2021 to early 2022, three members of the Young Advocates Standing Committee’s Future of the Profession working group, Brendan McArthur-Stevens, Sara McGregor, and Zac Thiffault, conducted a survey of young advocates asking what they hoped for and expected from their workplaces as people started to return to the office. The survey – The future of advocacy and work arrangements ‘post’-pandemic: Perspectives of young advocates – provides insight into what young advocates are looking for in respect of remote and on-site work, mental health, and mentorship. In this episode, Brendan, Sara, and Zac discuss the results of this survey.
The results of their survey can also be found here: https://www.advocates.ca/Upload/Files/PDF/Community_Events/YASC/The-Future-of-Advocacy-Post-Pandemic-Perspectives-of-Young-Advocates.pdf
Brendan Mcarthur-Stevens is an associate at Blakes in Calgary. He specializes in complex commercial disputes and advising clients in the areas of constitutional and administrative law. Brendan also teaches administration law at the University of Calgary Faculty of Law.
Sara McGregor is a senior associate at Borden Ladner Gervais. She lives and works in Toronto but began her career in Calgary. Sara is currently on maternity leave but she maintains a broad disputes practice with a focus on complex commercial and civil litigation matters involving private and public companies, as well as individuals.
Zac Thiffault is an in-house legal advisor with the Métis Nation of Ontario, a role which focuses on Indigenous governance and Aboriginal rights. Before working with the MNO, Zac practised at a small full-service firm in Midland, Ontario, primarily practicing in the areas of civil litigation and estate planning.
The interviewer, Karen Bernofsky, is an associate at Stockwoods LLP in Toronto. Karen’s practice encompasses a range of complex corporate commercial civil litigation, administrative law, and criminal law with a focus on complex civil fraud claims. Karen is currently a member of the Young Advocates Standing Committee.
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While The Advocates’ Society is based in Toronto, we are a national organization with Directors and members located across Canada in the treaty and traditional territories of many Indigenous Peoples. We encourage our members to reflect upon their relationships with the Indigenous Peoples in these territories, and the history of the land on which they live and work.
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Speaker 3:Welcome to Friends Who Argue the podcast from The Advocate Society. Today, we are going to be speaking about young advocates, perspectives on work arrangements in this post pandemic world. I am Karen Barovsky. I'm an associate at Stock Woods, l l p in Toronto. I practice civil litigation, administrative law and criminal law with an emphasis on civil fraud claims. Joining me today are Brendan MacArthur Stevens, Sarah McGregor and Zach tfo, who are members of the Advocate Society's Young Advocate Standing Committee, also known as Yas. Brendan is a litigation associate at Blakes and Calgary where he specializes in complex commercial disputes and advising clients in the areas of constitutional and administrative law. He also teaches administration law at the University of Calgary faculty of law. Sarah is a senior associate at board and Ladner Base. She lives and works in Toronto, but began her career in Calgary Z currently on maternity leave, but maintains a broad disputes practice with a focus on complex commercial and civil litigation matters involving private and public companies as well as individuals. Zach is an in-house legal advisor with the Metis Nation of Ontario, a role which focuses on indigenous governance in Aboriginal rights. Before working with the M N O, Zach practiced at a small full service firm in Midland, Ontario, primarily practicing in the areas of civil litigation and estate planning. Thank you all for being here with me today. Now, I understand that you are all on the Young Advocate Standing Committee, um, as part of the Futures of the Profession group, and that you were involved in a survey about the impact of Covid-19 on young advocates. Brendan, can you tell us a bit about that survey?
Speaker 4:Certainly, Karen, and first of all, thank you very much for having us on the podcast today. So how did this all come about? Um, well, Karen, it was the late summer of 2021, and members of the Young Advocates Standing Committee had convened virtually on Zoom for our annual training and brainstorming session as we do every year. And at this time, in 2021, we were f firmly in the pandemic, that's for sure. But there was some cautious optimism that perhaps the pandemic was getting less acute and that perhaps a return to normal, whatever that might be, was on the horizon. And so at that Young Advocate's Retreat, and then in subsequent meetings of that working group, you mentioned, uh, called the Future of the Profession Working Group, a common topic of conversation was, uh, was the fact that our employers were all grappling with what a return to normal might look like. And so this uncertainty and this, this sense of impending change that was, that was percolating in our profession, gave rise to a real opportunity to provide a voice for young advocates about what that change could look like. And it was against that backdrop that Sarah, Zack and I became very curious about how young advocates were thinking about this potential transition to quote unquote normal. And we wanted to know, should we all revert back to the way things were before the pandemic and go back to our old ways of doing things, or has the pandemic sparked new ideas and new ways of working that we should embrace moving forward? Um, so, uh, Karen, that was really the impetus for the report that we ultimately created.
Speaker 3:Great. And maybe Sarah, you can tell us a little bit about, you know, what the survey involved, who you spoke to, sort of what time periods we're looking at
Speaker 5:For sure. Uh, so as Brendan mentioned, we, you know, decided we wanted to create and deliver a survey. We went back and forth on kind of, you know, the format, what that should look like, whether it would be written or whether we should be interviewing our colleagues and, and friends, um, ultimately decided to try to collect some quantitative as well as qualitative information from everyone. So there were some, you know, very straightforward questions. You know, what year of call are you, where do you live in practice? So we could get some kind of demographic information. Um, and then we tried to create some questions that, you know, would require our respondents to really give us their thoughts and feelings about how their practice had been impacted by Covid 19 remote working or not. Um, you know, how they truly felt about the prospect of a return to quote unquote normalcy a as Brendan mentioned. So I think ultimately we landed on a, it was about a 10 question survey. Um, we finalized that in the fall of 2021 and began disseminating it to our personal networks. We were fortunate to have some help from some of our other YAS colleagues. They also helped send the survey out. Um, and in some instances we interviewed friends and, and those in our networks. And in other cases, we emailed a copy of the survey out and, and collected responses. And when we really got Taz involved, uh, special shout out to Robin at the Advocate Society, she helped create a Google document with the survey. And so we were able to send a link and everyone was able to just respond to it that way. So as a result of that, we were also able to share the survey via social media. So some of the listeners today may have seen it on Twitter or, uh, LinkedIn. And ultimately between the fall and early fall 2021 and early 2022, we were able to collect just over 220 responses from lawyers across the country. Um, the banor majority of whom started practicing between 2014 and 2021.
Speaker 3:Great. So I think what everybody really wants to know is what were the results of that survey? Um, so Zach, maybe you could tell us if you were sitting down with a managing partner or whoever the decision makers are at a firm or a business, the people who are probably very worried right now about keeping their young associates, what do you think is the most important thing for them to know about the work environment going forward?
Speaker 6:Yeah, looking at the responses, we had a, across the, the, the questions, there was a really key theme that came out that young lawyers are really looking for flexibility in their workspace. Um, you know, many felt that working from home allowed them to set their own schedule. They could prioritize different things such as their mental health, their wellbeing, um, but many, many also found that there's also setbacks to that. Um, there was problem setting boundaries with their employers and their clients. Um, and finding that that sweet spot between, you know, personal and work time became very blurred when your home also became your workspace. Um, and looking at that as well, there's many young lawyers, um, myself, for example, I don't have a dedicated workspace in my house I have to use, um, you know, I work from home primarily now, so I have to use my own workspace. But that was a common bit of feedback we had. So having this flexibility of in-office and working at home, that's something that young advocates are definitely looking for. And, um, if a workplace had a policy of exclusively remote work or exclusively working in office, I think that after the realities of Covid that we're all slowly, surely settling into now almost, almost three years, which is kind of hard to think of it now that we're almost at that mark. Um, flexibility within the workplace is definitely something that young advocates are looking towards. And I think too rigid of a policy, um, where, you know, that was exclusively work from home or work from the office could definitely be a one quick way for, uh, a firm to lose their associates at this stage.
Speaker 4:And, and Karen, if I could just perhaps add something to, to what Zach said there, one thing that was really interesting to us was the difference in responses when it came to asking respondents to adopt their own personal perspective on what's best for work work environments versus what is most effective for their team or organization as a whole. And so we a, we strategically asked two different questions about that to see if there would be different perspectives, um, from from respondents. And so interestingly, you know, our first question on the survey, one of the first ones was in terms of working remotely versus working from home, or pardon me, working from the office, what is your ideal work setup? Personally, we had 50 per six per of the respondents saying a blend is best versus 24% say in the office and 20% saying home. So that's an interesting, uh, interesting, uh, set of feedback. But then we asked the follow up question in terms of working remotely versus working from the office, what do you think is the best for your team or your, for your organization as a whole? And we saw a shift there. The, the home, the home went down from 20%, from a personal perspective to 9% from an organizational perspective. So what this really showed to us is that despite this desire for flexibility, there is a real need and, and and desire amongst young advocates to have a strong presence in the office, uh, still for things like mentorship and for things like connections and learning. Um, so we found that quite interesting. And I know another theme that came up was, was, uh, unique considerations for young parents. I'm currently looking on this zoom call that we're convened on together with, uh, my good friend and colleague Sarah, uh, holding her, her beautiful newborn, uh, baby daughter. And so Sarah, do you wanna share some thoughts from a young parent's perspective and what we heard from our respondents in that regard?
Speaker 5:Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Brendan. Uh, I mean, from personal experience, I, you know, practiced and, and I'm on mat leave now. I haven't experienced, you know, the tensions associated with working and being a mom just yet, but I plan to return to practice next fall, so to watch this space. Uh, but when we delivered the survey, although it wasn't a question that we asked specifically of our respondents, we did receive quite a few, uh, mentions or reference to kind of the tensions associated with being a parent during covid 19 from our respondents. Um, you know, there were references to both the pleasures and the pressures that come with balancing, you know, building your career, starting a career, uh, as well as raising your child or children and attending to family responsibilities. And so some, uh, some of our respondents noted the positives associated with working from home. Uh, you know, in a lot of cases, our colleagues across the country noted that they had never before been able to spend this much time with their loved ones. They were home to help with homework, they were home to help with, with meals and bedtimes. And for a lot of folks that was a positive. Um, but, uh, by the same token, a lot of our respondents noted that they felt like they were being pulled in a million different directions all day, every day. And, you know, being around to assist with homework and meals and all of these things that they would otherwise have missed because they were at the office was creating tension in some cases with their employer or making them feel like they weren't able to kind of deliver the services to their clients and their firms or employers that, you know, they may have felt they could do in the past. So I think the takeaway was young parents in particular, at, at least in 2021 when we delivered the survey, we're really trying to figure out, you know, the best way to be the best parent, the best partner, the best employee all at the same time, and in a lot of cases we're struggling. So for them in particular, a cry for flexibility and understanding from their employers was a very common theme. Um, and, you know, speaking as someone who's just become a parent, I think I, I was telling Karen and Brendan and, and Zach that I've never before been so happy, but I've also never before been so tired. And, and you do find your focus and what really matters does change as soon as you become a parent. So for employers, you know, even now that the situation has changed, and in a lot of cases, firms and employers have have called their employees back, at least on a part-time basis to the office, remembering that young advocates are, are juggling, and in some cases very new to the role of parent and caregiver. Uh, so that extra bit of understanding, uh, I think goes a long way. And, and the flexibility is really appreciated.
Speaker 6:And kind of, kind of building on that flexibility, it was, uh, uh, a key thing that we found was that people were finding the, they felt, even though their office may not necessarily be putting that pressure on, but they felt that they needed to be a avail available for their colleagues and their clients 24 7, and adding in the parental obligations, as Sarah was just talking about, that's pulling, pulling young advocates in multiple directions. So I think in some of our recommendations were that for, for managing partners in the profession, to kind of think about policies for working at home, things like, you know, installing it, delay deliver email, unless it's an emergency, for example, after a certain hour, um, I, you know, I'm guilty of sending emails way later than I should, but it's something that if there was an office wide policy that was actually enforced by management, and the more senior lawyers, it can actually allow, uh, lawyers to work. If they wanna work after, that's fine, but it's, it's not forcing other people to potentially give up important obligations. So, um, definitely something that management at firms need to be considering, you know, how do they, you know, action, action, this type of feedback, feedback rather than going, we understand and we hear it. It's, it's seeing that next step and taking the concrete steps to actually make the changes that are needed to find out what this new reality is for the profession.
Speaker 3:That's great advice. I know you were talking about how people were struggling during the, the pandemic. Was mental health something that the survey looked at as well? Uh, and maybe Brendan, you can, uh, address that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, thank you, Karen. That's a great question. Um, because one, one of the key takeaways from our project was certainly related to mental health and, and specifically we, we divided the responses into what we called 10 key takeaways, um, with some additional gloss throughout. Uh, the report itself is available on the Advocate Society website. It's called the Future of Advocacy and Work arrangements, post pandemic Perspectives of Young Advocates and Mental health emerged as a particularly interesting theme because it wasn't actually something like parenting that Sarah mentioned that we expressly asked about in our standard form survey and interview questions. Mental health was not ex specifically called out, uh, in the questions, but most, many, if not most of the respondents did highlight mental health as one of the things that they were thinking about when, when reflecting on the impact of the pandemic and the future of this profession and, and where we can go from here, uh, in light of everything that we've learned. And mental health was also interesting because it was an area of real diversity amongst respondents. A number of people commented on the positive effects, uh, that the pandemic had had on their mental health and on, and, and maybe not the pandemic, but working from home had had on their mental health. Um, highlighting things like the increased flexibility and the empowerment to start work at a time that best suits them. Highlighting the ability to no longer feel pressure to put in FaceTime at the office and to, you know, roll out of bed and put in a solid day's work, um, without having to be fully on throughout the day, more time spent with families and pets, more time to go for walks and cook for yourself and maintain that healthy lifestyle. But then there was a number of respondents who also talked about the real adverse effects of working from home, uh, and, and the real challenges that they faced throughout the pandemic. Things like being lonely and isolated, yearning for that sense of connection, screen fatigue, and even just the physical manifestation of, of being at your desk at home without a commute. The phy, a lot of people commented on that, the effect on your neck and your back and your eyes, um, the cause of a lack of focus from, from all of these screen meetings that we were having. And so, yeah, it was really interesting that, that we had this, this diversity of, of answers, but where we all think that this drives to is what Zach commented on at the top of this conversation, which is the overarching need for flexibility and the salutary benefits that a flexible and measured return to the office policy can have on, on young, on young advocates. Um, and just, just on that point, there was one respondent in particular who I thought put this quite well in their narrative comments to us, and I'll just quote from, from their answer, what this respondent said is that the home environment feels less stressful. And there are a number of efficiencies and comforts associated with working from home that I think are very positive. I eat more nutrition nutritious because when I have a moment I can walk to the kitchen and prepare something that isn't food court takeout. I can get a little extra sleep, not worry about my appearance too much, and then I can sit down to work. However, working remotely felt more difficult in the long, dark winter days when a change of scenery feels really necessary. That's the main reason I believe a mix is most appropriate. And so, like, like the other questions to our survey, when people were talking about mental health, a key theme that emerges flexibility. And so when leaders in this profession are thinking about what their work, work policies should be and what they should look like, I think accounting for the fact that we are all different, we all experience work, we all experience home, and we all experience those moments in between, very differently is key. And so let's try to harness the amazing things that happen when we're together in the office, preparing for court, preparing for a case, while giving these young advocates space to be themselves, to take a breather and work from home every once in a while. Um, that seems to be a, a, a real benefit that we could all, we could all, um, have in the future if we go about things, uh, you know, carefully and thoughtfully.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the takeaway that not everyone is the same and not everyone's life is the same and not everyone is, you know, recharges their batteries the same way. I think that's a really good takeaway from this is that that need for flexibility, that it's not just flexibility, um, for an individual person, but flexibility between people within the office, cuz they may not all need the same thing. You briefly mentioned earlier in one of your answers, uh, one of the reasons that young advocates want to be in the office is for mentorship. And I think we've all seen that mentorship has had to evolve, um, during covid now that, you know, you can't just follow a lawyer to court or sit in their office while they're on the phone. Um, what can the survey tell people about mentoring in this post pandemic world? Um, and maybe Sarah, you can start with this.
Speaker 5:Sure. Karen, uh, I mean, I think listeners today, you know, to the extent they've read or plan to go check out the, the report that we produced should bear in mind that the results of our survey were obtained earlier this year and kind of in late 2021. So at that point, I think it's safe to say that the majority of our respondents were spending more time at home than in the office. Uh, you know, I'm aware that over the course of the summer and into the fall, a lot of employers have started calling their employees back, at least on a part-time basis. So to the extent that everyone is spending a bit more time in the office than they were before, I think some of the, you know, lack of just kind of interpersonal, you know, real time connection is, is being addressed at this point. But based on the survey and the responses we collected, uh, an overarching theme was that with everyone on Zoom, with everyone working at home, there were fewer opportunities to, you know, pop into a partner or a senior, you know, member of your, of your team's office to ask that, you know, quote unquote silly question that you would have no qualms about posing to them if you're in person, but may feel slightly more uncomfortable putting into an email and memorializing for all eternity. Um, there were also just fewer opportunities to kind of bump into someone in the hall and have that quick, hi, how are you doing? This is what I'm working on. Oh, since I've got you, you know, I have a quick question. Those off the cuff, you know, really natural interpersonal opportunities were, were lacking when everyone was at home. And a lot of our respondents noted that you now had to set up a meeting or try to catch someone on the phone and make sure that your schedule's aligned. And in that way it, it made things a lot less organic, obviously. Um, but also, you know, sometimes by the time you caught that person who may be able to answer your question, that moment of really needing help had passed, or, you know, the more junior lawyer had felt, they had to kind of make a split second decision because they couldn't get ahold of the person they needed to speak to. So I think it, at least the tone we got was in a lot of ways it added some stress to young advocates' lives not being able to connect with their mentors, uh, as readily as before. Um, another kind of missed opportunity that came up frequently was not being able to a, as you mentioned, tag along to court or join in on a client meeting. Um, a lot of young advocates noted that they weren't able to kind of observe senior practitioners doing things live the way they had previously. Uh, but I will say by the same token, with the introduction of, of, you know, zoom court and web-based mediations and arbitrations, we did also have a number of respondents say that they were now being invited to observe proceedings that they might not otherwise have been able to sit in on, particularly if there was any sort of an inter-jurisdictional component or, you know, the client or another party was based outside of the city they live and practice in. So I think there were pros and cons to that that, that we noted in the responses, but generally speaking, young advocates were missing the opportunity to tag along to things the way they had in person. Um, and I, I think the last key takeaway was that, you know, for senior practitioners, leaders at organizations and law firms, um, you know, it's well and good to recognize that mentorship has been lacking and that young advocates need FaceTime and help and guidance from those who've been doing this longer. Uh, but it's another to kind of put into practice ways of facilitating that. And, and I think really the key takeaway is mentorship needs to be more intentional than ever before. If you are signed up or you know, voluntold to be a mentor, it's more important than ever to really show up for your mentee to make time, to spend with them, to invite them to court appearances, client meetings, whether those are virtual or in person. Uh, but to really take that role seriously, uh, because that lack of contact, that loneliness that, you know, we spoke about some young advocates suffering from lack of feeling connected to the place you work. All of those things were really heightened during covid and having a mentor who is, you know, really invested in you and, and not just a mentor, but kind of a champion for you and your career is more important than ever. So I I, I think that's really a key takeaway and something that all employers, whether they're law firms or or not, should really be striving to, to facilitate. And I, I guess I would just add, I'm gonna put Zach on the spot here a little bit, but Zach is a young advocate who actually started his career during the pandemic and worked, I think it was fully, remotely for quite a while and then kind of a, you know, went to the office. But Zach knows better than all of us sitting here, what it's like to practice during Covid. So he may have some thoughts that he can share with us.
Speaker 6:Yeah, it was, uh, the pandemic began during the last like three weeks of law school for me. So, uh, I was spared having to, um, do an entire year or even a semester full of law school online, which, uh, I know just from my, my friends that had to do it how difficult that was. But the, the reality is now we're faced with two full years of lawyers who, you know, entered the profession either full or part-time working from home policies, uh, and employers were not prepared for that type of mentorship. Um, again, I was, I was fortunate enough, so Sarah was almost a hundred percent on point there. I was in the office, but most of my mentors were not. So I worked at a small firm in, uh, north of Toronto so often, um, my, you know, the people who were my mentors were busy, but they were often working from home. So there was a skeleton crew in the office, um, which created its own barriers. I was fortunate to have known the lawyers that were, were my mentors before the pandemic, but when, uh, you haven't seen somebody in person for a long time or, um, in other cases, not even taking myself outta the equation, there's people who may never have met their mentors in person. Um, and the only time they've ever met them might be over Zoom or a phone call every few weeks, just how busy everyone is, which definitely impacts the, the substance of the mentorship. One thing, again, before I, you know, was called, or even before Article, I summered at the same firm that I, I worked at for my first, uh, year of practice and, uh, one of the now retired partners there had always said, um, mentors don't need to just be in your office. So never miss an opportunity to either drive opposing counsel to the airport or take them out for lunch right after. Um, because it's those little interactions, those pieces of advice, um, that you can eventually rely on them on a, for, in a, in a different file that you're not working against them on. You can call them for advice, but you don't have those necessarily with, with Zoom court. You just see them, they pop on and then they pop off. And you may have a few phone calls in between, but depending on your relationship, you may not actually get to connect outside of just the specific file you're working on. And as a young lawyer there, there were some, some lawyers I was able to build a relationship with, but I definitely think there was, there was many missed opportunities. Even just chatting with someone, you know, in the hallways of the courtroom, um, that's not there, and rebuilding that and finding how you, how you find mentors throughout, this was definitely something that I heard within the responses. Uh, I, again, I focused my network was quite, quite recent calls, so there was a not a lot of responses who were talking about this same type of issue where mentorship was, is is something that has taken a hit at these seminal years and in finding your footing is hard enough without a pandemic happening around you. So how, how mentorship is shaped now that we're, we're living in this hybrid work from home world for many places is something that, um, lawyers need to consider. And also the bench we know has been making very probably correct, uh, comments that some of the younger lawyers who are now returning to court don't have the proper etiquette, um, or, you know, don't know the right cues for example. And that type of, that type of lack of knowledge is something that practical hands-on mentorship definitely could have shaped. So there, the, there's these little things that those of us who came into the profession right at the start of this pandemic are still kind of stumbling through and, um, we're finding mentors, but, um, I think there is a little bit of an obligation on more senior members of the bar to be looking, looking out for, and maybe giving a hand up in certain areas for those of us who, uh, have this unique call experience.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean it's one of those things at the time you don't realize either you're taking for granted, you know, being able to chit chat with counsel in the courtroom or between breaks and discoveries or, you know, during lunch and emotion or mediation. And, you know, when I think about all the just advice and, you know, things I've learned from just those sorts of conversations, uh, you forget that that's not something that everyone has had an opportunity to have if they've started practicing in the last couple of years. And so I think the real takeaway here is that there needs to be a more intentional move to provide that mentorship, particularly to, you know, new calls or even have to second year calls because they just aren't getting that sort of serendipitous, um, interaction that they used to get. And I imagine that one of the other issues certainly I've found is that when you're working from home and everyone's working from home, you don't really know how busy people are. Um, and you can kind of imagine in your head that they're really, really busy and you don't wanna bother them. Whereas if you're in the office, you could kind of walk by, see if they look like they're really stressed out or if their door is closed. And it's a lot easier to approach people when you, you know, that they're not gonna, um, be upset about it. So we, I think we all need to be a little more communicative about, with, with juniors about, you know, it's okay to come to me like, you know, I'm not really busy right now, that sort of thing. Um, just to make sure that those lines of communication are open and, um, that juniors know they can come to you and that if they wanna talk confidentially, they can talk to you confidentially and you'll be there. Um, cuz otherwise they may not know that.
Speaker 4:No, Karen, I just wanted to, sorry, quickly say that. I completely agree. And we actually concluded our report with a little section on advice from that we had received from, uh, respondents to Young Advocates. Um, and so yeah, check out the report for that advice, but one of the pieces of advice that we got, Karen, ties into what you just said and what a respondent, uh, indicated that you should reach out more than feels natural to your colleagues, um, both as a mentee and as a mentor when, when you're not physically in the pre physically in the office together. And I think that's, that's good advice. Um, but yeah, I just wanted to, to mention that aspect of the report and, and thanks again for having us.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you for being here. Um, I'll give you an opportunity if anyone wants to learn more about this, where can they go to read the report?
Speaker 4:The report is on the Advocate Society website. Um, if you were just to type into Google the future of advocacy and work arrangements, post pandemic perspectives of young advocates, uh, it will come up as the first hit. It's a pdf, uh, that you can find on Google. And, um, yeah, you can check out the report there and, and read more about the findings.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you all for being here. This has been very illuminating and hopefully will help law firms create a more comfortable or flexible culture for young advocates going forward. Thanks,
Speaker 4:Karen. Thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thanks to our guests, Sarah McGregor, Zach tfo, and Brendan MacArthur Stevens for a thoughtful discussion. Thanks to my co-editor and today's interviewer, Karen Barovsky, to the Advocate Society team and our sponsor, M n p, for their support. This is Chris Hawkins, co-editor of Friends Who Argue Signing Off
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